我想要从科学、文化、艺术、社会、性别、权力、政治等各个方面，360度地审视肌肉，特别是女性对肌肉的不同看法。我的成长过程中，父亲既是一位艺术家，又是一位运动的坚定支持者，这影响了我对身体的看法，让我将艺术和运动结合起来。我在书中探讨了肌肉如何与大脑沟通，以及在自信、长寿甚至隐喻中的作用。 长期以来，肌肉被等同于男性气质，但这与现代社会的需求不符。女性也应该拥有肌肉，拥有力量。女性不应该为了减肥而过度运动和节食，而应该通过力量训练和摄入更多蛋白质来增加肌肉量，从而减少脂肪。从30岁开始，女性会随着年龄增长而逐渐流失肌肉，因此力量训练对于女性的健康、大脑健康和长寿至关重要。肌肉是人体中最适应性强的组织，无论何时开始力量训练，都能获得益处，即使到了70多岁也能增强力量。 肌肉的美不仅在于其外观，还在于其功能性和长寿益处。肩膀的美丽在于其功能性、象征意义和美学价值。Jan Todd 的故事展现了女性力量的可能性，以及社会对女性力量的阻碍和改变。研究肌肉给我最大的收获是了解到肌肉与大脑健康和长寿之间密切相关。我希望每个女性都知道，力量训练是为了她们自己，是为了增强能力和自信。
我写《论肌肉》这本书，源于对人体，特别是肌肉的持续探索。这并非单纯的科学研究，而是从科学、文化、艺术、社会、性别、权力、政治等各个方面，对肌肉进行360度全方位审视，尤其关注女性对肌肉的独特视角。
我的父亲是一位艺术家，同时也是运动的坚定支持者。这种独特的成长环境塑造了我对身体的认知，让我将艺术的审美与运动的活力完美融合。在《论肌肉》中，我深入探讨了肌肉与大脑的复杂互动，以及它在增强自信、促进长寿，甚至在隐喻表达中的重要作用。
长期以来，社会普遍将肌肉与男性气质划等号。这种观念根植于生物学基础：在自然界，体型较大的个体通常更具力量，更能胜任捕猎、保护等任务。然而，现代社会早已不同于远古时代。我们不再需要依靠纯粹的蛮力生存。女性也应该拥有强健的肌肉，拥有力量，这与女性气质并不冲突。
我反对女性为了追求所谓的“苗条”而过度节食和运动。健康的体魄需要力量训练和充足的蛋白质摄入，从而增加肌肉量，减少脂肪。 从30岁开始，女性便会不可避免地经历年龄相关的肌肉流失（肌少症）。因此，力量训练对于女性的健康、大脑健康和长寿至关重要。肌肉是人体中最具适应性的组织，无论你何时开始力量训练，都能收获益处，即使到了70多岁，也能增强力量。
肌肉的美，不仅仅体现在其外形上。它更在于其功能性，以及它为我们带来的长寿益处。 我在书中特别着墨于肩膀的美丽。肩膀不仅在日常生活中发挥着至关重要的功能性作用，更承载着文化象征意义和独特的审美价值。强壮的肩膀象征着力量、责任和自信。
Jan Todd的故事，一位女性力量举的先驱，完美诠释了女性力量的无限可能，以及社会对女性力量的长期误解和逐渐改变。她打破了诸多世界纪录，挑战了传统观念，并最终成为一位受人尊敬的体育史学家。她的经历证明，女性同样可以拥有强大的力量，并以此改变世界。
在撰写《论肌肉》的过程中，我最大的收获是深刻理解了肌肉与大脑健康和长寿之间的密切联系。肌肉并非孤立存在，它与大脑之间存在着持续的沟通和互动。运动和力量训练能够促进大脑健康，增强认知能力，延缓衰老。
我希望每一位女性都能明白：力量训练是为了自己。 不仅能塑造强健的体魄，更能增强自信，提升能力，在生活中拥有更多掌控感和自主性。 力量训练并非为了迎合某种审美标准，而是为了提升自身能力，成为更强大、更自信的自己。
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02:49 我想从科学、文化、艺术、社会、性别、权力、政治等360度视角来研究肌肉，特别是女性对肌肉的不同看法。
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04:58 长期以来，肌肉被等同于男性气质，但这与我们现代社会的需求不符，女性也应该拥有肌肉。
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07:12 女性不应该为了减肥而过度运动和节食，而应该通过力量训练和摄入更多蛋白质来增加肌肉量，从而减少脂肪。
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09:05 从30岁开始，女性会随着年龄增长而逐渐流失肌肉，因此力量训练对于女性的健康、大脑健康和长寿至关重要。
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09:53 肌肉是人体中最适应性强的组织，无论何时开始力量训练，都能获得益处，即使到了70多岁也能增强力量。
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11:50 肌肉的美不仅在于其外观，还在于其功能性和长寿益处。
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14:04 肩膀的美丽在于其功能性、象征意义和美学价值。
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16:48 Jan Todd 的故事展现了女性力量的可能性，以及社会对女性力量的阻碍和改变。
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27:22 研究肌肉给我最大的收获是了解到肌肉与大脑健康和长寿之间密切相关。
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31:11 我研究这本书时最大的意外发现是，与年龄相关的肌肉流失始于30多岁，但即使晚些开始锻炼，也能从中受益。
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37:25 我希望每个女性都知道，力量训练是为了她们自己，是为了增强能力和自信。
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Welcome to the MyBuddyGreen podcast. I'm Jason Wachub, founder and co-CEO of MyBuddyGreen, and your host. This podcast is brought to you in part by Stash. With Stash, there's no more confusing, frustrating gatekeeping to keep you from investing. Stash isn't just an investing app. It's a registered investment advisor that combines automated investing with dependable financial strategies to help you reach your goals faster. 语法解析
00:24
They'll provide you with personalized advice on what to invest in based on your goals. Or if you just want to sit back and watch your money go to work, you can opt into their award-winning expert-managed portfolio that picks stocks for you. Stash has helped millions of Americans reach their financial goals and starts at just $3 per month. Don't let your savings sit around. Make it work harder for you. Go to get.stash.com slash mindbuddygreen to see how you can receive… 语法解析
00:53
$25 towards your first stock purchase and to view important disclosures. That's get.stash.com slash mindbodygreen. Paid non-client endorsement. Not representative of all clients and not a guarantee. Investment advisory services offered by Stash Investments LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Investing involves risk. Offer is subject to terms and conditions. 语法解析
01:22
What does muscle mean to you? Strength? Power? Maybe even beauty? Well, today's guest, award-winning journalist and best-selling author Bonnie Swee, is here to explore all of the above and more. Bonnie's latest book, On Muscle, takes a deep dive into the science, history, and cultural significance of muscle, showing us how it shapes not just our bodies, but also our identities. Bonnie grew up balancing two worlds, art and athletics, raised by her dad, who was both an artist and a firm believer in the 语法解析
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value of movement and muscle. She spent a decade as a competitive swimmer and her lifelong fascination with the human body is evident in her writing. In On Muscle, she unpacks everything from the way muscle communicates with the brain to its role in confidence, longevity, and even metaphor. In today's show, we'll talk about the adaptability of muscle, why it's never too late to build strength, and the link between muscle, brain health, and longevity. And 语法解析
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we'll dive into the incredible story of Jan Todd, a pioneer in women's weightlifting. This conversation is a love letter to muscle, its resilience, its beauty, and the ways it shapes both our bodies and our lives. 语法解析
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So why a book on muscle? Literally, that's the title, On Muscle. I wanted to continue the conversation of the body that I started with Why We Swim, you know, but kind of expand it out to include land activities, you know, just but just that we we all inhabit. 语法解析
02:49
inhabit a body, right, in the world. And I think I was just really enraptured by the idea of the fact that muscle is one of those things that we take for granted, but do we really understand it? And I wanted to examine muscle from this 360-degree view of science, culture, you know, art, society, gender, power, politics, all those things. And of course, as a woman in the world, I 语法解析
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we get different messages about muscle, right? Than men do. And I was very interested in examining that as well because I grew up the kid of a 语法解析
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an artist, my dad, who was born and grew up in Hong Kong and he trained as a martial artist as well. And when he came to America and then I, and my brother and I were born in New York to him and my mom, that he kind of raised us up in his studio as artists and artists. 语法解析
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And also he wanted to train us up as athletes, you know, as people who knew how to the value of exercise. And so my brother and I, he always says that he trained. My dad says he trained us up as to be his little ninjas. And my brother and I are very, very constitutionally averse to conflict. 语法解析
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But what we learned from that was the value of being embodied, right? Like of physicality. And for me as the girl, like he didn't treat me any different from my brother. And I think that very early upbringing and view of the body, not just as a, in form, right? As the artist, I was looking at the body in this way and appreciating it the way my dad did, but also as the, 语法解析
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functional, right? So those two things really went together in a way that I think was really healthy for me. So with regards to women and muscle specifically, can you walk us through some of the history here and the cultural changes that we've seen over the years? Sure. I mean, I think any woman in the world knows that muscle has been for a 语法解析
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a long time equated with masculine, right? Masculinity. And this goes back to, you know, the biological underpinnings of like what it is to be exhibit strength, visible strength, because in nature, you know, across species there, there's often the larger one of the, of the, of the animal, like in male and female is larger. And so tends to be the one that is fighting off 语法解析
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predators or going to get food or protecting the nest. And there is like a, there are, you know, various balance, imbalances here across species. And, but we don't live in that world anymore. We don't live in a world in which we need a man to go and like clean up 语法解析
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club animal and drag it back to the cave. And so, and that is a very crude way and sort of stereotypical way of saying it, but I guess we live in this modern world and there, I think that the sort of biological underpinnings for when we hit puberty, you know, like up until age 10, girls and boys are 语法解析
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like physically are pretty much the same, you know, in terms of like speed and power and strength. And so in oftentimes the girls are stronger than the boys because they start to develop a little faster and grow a little faster and then pass at ages when, you know, the muscles that come with male puberty kind of tend to be bigger. The growth of the bones is longer. You know, you have bit 语法解析
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bigger levers to produce more force. And so there are indisputed changes that come with puberty to the body. But I think that with our ideals of beauty, there's still this collapsing of muscles into this gender binary that I think can be very harmful these days. But do you think, I think culturally, I've seen a big shift in the last couple of years where 语法解析
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More women are lifting weights. They're lifting heavier. They're focused on increasing their lean muscle mass. They are eating more, not eating less. I think, and I've said this before, I'll say it again, that… 语法解析
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I think women were sold this terrible idea that you had to exercise more and eat less and juice and cleanse and maybe you shouldn't focus on lifting. You don't want to be bulky. And we conflated weight and health and it was terrible and it's all wrong. And the reality is, 语法解析
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If you're looking to, you know, quote unquote, get toned or feel great and feel or look great in your body. No, you don't necessarily need to exercise yourself silly and eat less and juice and cleanse. You probably need to 语法解析
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eat more protein and do resistance training and build lean muscle mass so that you melt away the fat. And you may even gain weight, but you're going to notice it in your waist. And that culturally it's become more accepting for women to have some muscle. And it's bigger than just the physicality of what it looks like for a woman to be toned. It's this idea of women stepping into their strength and 语法解析
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their power, it's okay to be strong. I think it's just tremendous. It is tremendous. And I think there's always been a kind of pendulum swing back and forth, right? You kind of look back over the decades to various fitness crazes and sort of when bodybuilding stepped into the fore and muscles became more visible. And I think that it's constantly this shift. But now we have much more 语法解析
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reason to, there's more science behind it. There's more knowledge behind the fact that with age, starting from age 30, sarcopenia, you lose muscle. That's age-related muscle mass, especially with women. As you age into perimenopause, menopause, the 语法解析
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necessity and vitality and importance of having muscle in your body as resources to draw on for your overall health, for your brain health, you know, because muscles are constantly talking to your brain. Muscles, when you exercise and move, are sending messages to all these different parts of your body and actually make your brain bigger, you know, and that's why when we are 语法解析
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are when the kids in school with PE do better in school. And that's because there is this brain, mind, and muscle communication that's happening all the time when we're moving. And muscle is one of those incredible tissues that is probably the most adaptable, changeable tissue in 语法解析
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in your body. I mean, it's one of the most and it's like changing from moment to moment. And I think what is so awesome about muscle that I learned through this book is that this idea that we are capable of change. And I think that no matter when you start to lift, you know, you could be a lifelong non-exerciser. I don't recommend it. But if you start exercising, you're 语法解析
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Even in your 70s, you're going to see the benefits and gains and you're going to see the fact that you can get stronger and the muscle will respond to the environment and to what you need it to be doing well into your older age. And I think that that's something that people don't realize and they think it's passed me by. Exercise, lifting, strength training has passed me by and it hasn't. You know, it's such a self-confidence and self-esteem booster because if you do resist 语法解析
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resistance training and you do eat enough protein maybe you take creatine you're going to experience results and you will look in the mirror and you will notice a difference and that's powerful right you'll notice a difference every day i think that that's what's so it's so beautiful too right these incremental daily gains that you have that you know suddenly two weeks three weeks four weeks six months down the line you're like oh i can lift that 语法解析
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you know, bag of groceries that I had a lot of trouble with before. I can go up and down these stairs, no problem. Like my, you know, it, it, I'm steady. I'm just, it can be small things that become big things. And I think that that is really something that 语法解析
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in our increasingly virtual world, like having the tangible gains is very grounding. Well, it's the, you know, you got the aesthetic benefit. I think everyone likes looking in the mirror and feeling good about how they look. And then the functional, you know, I can do the stairs with the groceries. I can lift heavy things. And then you touched on the longevity benefits. So you also mentioned, you know, you mentioned beauty and the book is almost a love letter to muscle too. 语法解析
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So can we spend a moment, like what do you think makes muscle so beautiful? So many things. I mean, I think, so in the form, there's a, the book is broken down, as you know, into these theme sections. And there's a section on form, which is about art and anatomy and the aesthetics of what muscle sort of how, you know, it is not only how we move through the world, right? 语法解析
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But it also gives us shape, right? It gives us like integrity. And I think that we it's I was so interested to dig into the history of why we think a muscular body is beautiful. And kind of going back to ancient times, ancient, you know, older literature into history, like the Greeks, right? 语法解析
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sculpted muscular bodies with bulges and ripples before they even understood what muscle was. And they didn't actually put them in the right places, but they knew that like an articulated, there was something associated with that. And that was like the control and fitness and a form that was beautiful, right? Because it was strong. And I think that that is something that does translate to 语法解析
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to today, right? It holds true today because all of these Renaissance artists who really were able to 语法解析
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communicate the beauty of the human body based on like sort of anatomical study, you know, like Michelangelo and Da Vinci and like that, that all of that is based on anatomical study, like dissection, right? So to kind of examine what is the stuff of muscle that makes us work and how to understand it. And there's just like, I think that there is an association of power. 语法解析
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that even before we understood that muscle was the thing that moved us, that it gives us this integrity and form in the world. Does that make sense? Sure. So I do think that it is beautiful because of that. And on the subject of beauty, you write specifically about shoulders. Yes. I love shoulders. Yeah. I mean, as a swimmer, I think I'm super biased. I think the metaphor of… 语法解析
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Okay, so one of the things that I really love about writing about muscle and examining the cultural importance of muscle is how we talk about it and how we talk about different parts of our bodies, you know, like as metaphor. So 语法解析
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To shoulder something, right, is to kind of be able to carry this burden, right, this capability. And like we kind of think about different emotional states with our posture, like, you know, shrugging your shoulders or bowing your shoulders, you know, you kind of indicate indifference. Or if you are sort of bowing your shoulders, you are indicating that you are 语法解析
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You're sort of like differential to something. But they are like strong, you know, strong shoulders. It's something about the way you carry yourself. There's like a regal posture to having strong shoulders, I think. And of course, like they are so integral to every single movement every day. I mean, so many muscles are, but I think there's something special about like this multi-rotational movement. 语法解析
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joint here, all these different muscles that work on your scapula. Like there's 17 different muscles that make this kind of motion possible and everything. I think I write this in the book, but it's like everything from like reaching for a glass or like putting your phone in your pocket or like typing, you know, it's just, it's so everything in our lives is so dependent on, on that movement. And so many things can go wrong when your shoulders are messed up. 语法解析
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Oh, yeah. So it sounds like functional, a little bit metaphorical. And then aesthetically, it seems like you like shoulders, too. I sure do. Yeah. 语法解析
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What do you think about shoulders? When I read the book, I was like, ah, you know, it makes a lot of sense in that shoulders are very functional. And it's one of those things that, you know, you don't think about it until you have an issue with the shoulder. I've had issues with shoulders. I've dislocated my shoulder. You don't realize how much you use it. And I do think it's this idea when it's very visible. If someone's walking toward you from a distance, like broad shoulders, you can kind of see it and they, 语法解析
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And no matter what you're wearing, so if it's winter and you're wearing a winter jacket, like you maybe aren't going to see someone's arms or legs, but you will notice broad muscular shoulders because it essentially extends your width, if you will. Your clothes hang from there, right? Yeah, exactly. It kind of makes sense. Something else I wanted to touch on in the history, you write about the first female weightlifters, right? 语法解析
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Can you talk about them? Yes. The opening section of the book is on strength. And I talk about this pioneer female powerlifter named Jan Todd. And she was the first woman. She really, she broke all these. She won the first powerlifting world championship. She broke everything. 语法解析
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many different world records in many different weight classes lifting. And she also was the first woman to lift the stones of strength known as the Dinnie stones. And they are these Scottish stones of strength. And, you know, some people call them manhood stones because in Scottish culture, you know, there's stories of certain stones that you would lift and you, and when you were capable of lifting them, you were a man, you know, you are not no longer a boy, you are a man. And so there was this idea of like, if, 语法解析
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If a woman could lift these manhood stones, then what did that mean? Right. It was it. I think that a lot of sort of the resistance to women being strong over the course of history, physically strong, is that there's an association between 语法解析
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of physical strength with other kinds of strength, right? Other kinds of power, because for the longest time, physical strength is how you demonstrate power, how you demonstrate that you have power and influence in a society, in a community, and that you should be rewarded for that, right? So there's a lot to unpack, and that's in the book. But I think what's so wonderful about Jan's story is that she did not know how 语法解析
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how strong she was. And part of that, you're kind of like, oh, well, how did she get so strong? And the important thing to realize about her story is that 语法解析
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And many people's sort of this like undiscovered sword in the stone, you know, King Arthur kind of discovery thing is that many people are not given the chance to discover their abilities. And in this case, clearly at the time in which she was growing up and, you know, she was in college in the 70s and she was like Title IX. It wasn't around, you know, she wasn't doing sports. There were no sports for her to play, even though she was like the fastest kid in her school life. 语法解析
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And she knew that she was strong, but she did not have the opportunity to discover exactly how strong she was until she started lifting. And… 语法解析
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Then she's just, she's had an extraordinary run. I mean, like she was, Sports Illustrated called her, you know, the world's strongest woman. And she was able to do all of these incredible feats. And then since then, she's become a very respected sports historian. And she's at UT Austin and she co-founded the Stark Center, which is one of the few like institutions 语法解析
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international, like IOC sponsored, like research centers, you know, because it has so much about sports history and specifically strength sports. Just how across history, women have been not allowed to be strong, not given the same opportunities, but that's obviously has been changing over 语法解析
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And is changing even faster now. Right. And so I think for someone to occupy a body in which she was able to not only inhabit that and understand what how transformational being able to demonstrate strength was for her as a woman in the world, but then to be a scholar and to be able to write and talk about those changes for women across these decades has been I think that she's just such an interesting and influential person to talk about that. 语法解析
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And she also runs the events for the Arnold Strongman, you know, and strong, strong woman competitions. And it's because of her that this, that these, that the female portion of these competitions really exists because she was the first one to demonstrate that that's possible. And now she administers all of these events for the, for the Arnold Strongman. And so it's just really, I think that her story is, is so, uh, 语法解析
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revealing of the changes that can happen, you know, and for the better. And she actually, I was just talking to her yesterday and she said, I just came back from the Arnold. I think it was the best competition we've ever had. And all these women, she said, all these women just kept breaking these, you know, lifting like 600 plus pounds. And she just was so over the moon about, I think, 语法解析
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Being really proud that this is what we're seeing and the sky is still the limit because we haven't hit that yet. This podcast is brought to you in part by Stash. Are you still putting off saving and investing because you'll get to it someday? Stash turns someday into today. 语法解析
21:04
Stash isn't just an investing app. It's a registered investment advisor that combines automated investing with dependable financial strategies to help you reach your goals faster. They'll provide you with personalized advice on what to invest in based on your goals. Or if you just want to sit back and watch your money go to work, you can opt into their award-winning expert-managed portfolio that picks stocks for you. 语法解析
21:26
Stash has helped millions of Americans reach their financial goals and starts at just $3 per month. Don't let your savings sit around. Make it work harder for you. Go to get.stash.com slash mindbodygreen to see how you can receive 语法解析
21:42
$25 towards your first stock purchase and to view important disclosures. That's get.stash.com slash mindbodygreen. Paid non-client endorsement. Not representative of all clients and not a guarantee. Investment advisory services offered by Stash Investments LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. 语法解析
22:04
Investing involves risk. Offer is subject to terms and conditions. Well, agreed. I think it's such a tremendous time for women of all ages, including girls. 语法解析
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Muscle resistance training is a vehicle for self-esteem, for a positive body image. And this wasn't a thing years ago at all. No, it wasn't. And I think about the rugby player Alona Marr, who basically I think she single-handedly has changed the conversation around muscle because she's both this incredible athlete, just strong. 语法解析
22:39
strong and beautiful and just like a force of nature on the field. And she's able to be so, I think she also has this very, she's like Lucille Ball. I think she has this comic and charismatic personality in which she's able to both be like talk about 语法解析
22:57
Yeah. 语法解析
23:13
These two things have long been seen in opposition. They're not. They really aren't. And she has done so much for girls. You talk about being a role model for girls who are coming up now. And this is so important for them to see that because to see that that is something that they can be and shouldn't feel bad about. And she's pretty verbal and vocal about that. And I think that because she talks about how when she was a big, strong kid growing up, 语法解析
23:41
And playing sports that she didn't have someone to look up to who was telling her that it was okay to be big and strong, to be a big, strong girl and dominate in sports in that way. What I think is so amazing is you mentioned beautiful and feminine. And those words were often linked together, but now they're linked with strong. 语法解析
24:02
beautiful and feminine. Strong can exist. It makes me so happy. Yeah. Yeah. Because, and, and, you know, you've heard this, I've heard this, we've talked about this, we touched on this a little bit where, where, 语法解析
24:15
When you're a woman in the world, you know, you might be told that you should exercise, but don't lift too much because you'll get bulky. Don't get too big or you'll be seen as masculine. So hard to do, by the way. You know how hard it is to do that? It's like, it's extraordinarily difficult and rare to get bulky, period. You have to work really hard. Yeah. 语法解析
24:40
You have to be focused on getting bulky to get bulky because it's not going to happen. Certainly, we've been told that like for women, that there is like an upper limit, you know, for what we should be in terms of size. And so I think that's getting exploded more because we have to lift heavy to see the benefits, the maximum benefits of health. So I think that that's something that's beginning to break through in a really great way because it's 语法解析
25:08
People who I people I know who wouldn't have particularly like even been interested that much in exercise are lifting more now because they understand that that's something that they're they should be doing. So I think like some of the health benefits, the signal of. 语法解析
25:26
Lifting heavy being really important for you as you get older has kind of broken through a little bit, helped to break through that stereotype of women should only be like, you know, toned or like have a Pilates body like long and lean or whatever. Like that's just… 语法解析
25:42
I think part of that is all the health science that is underscoring the idea of lifting heavy being good for everyone. So just to double click on that, I absolutely agree. I think there was perhaps a double standard where a woman could be right about this in the book, be potentially, quote unquote, too muscular. 语法解析
26:02
in the eyes of some and it feels like that's no longer the case. There is still a lot of pushback for women being too muscular. I still think that I don't want to say that that is gone because all of that stereotyping and all of that like putting you in your box and beauty… 语法解析
26:28
standards and ideals, it's still out there. It's still being put forward by some subset of society. But I think that the direction that many of us are moving in, there's enough cultural force, there's enough of the idea that women should be strong and really strong and lift and lift heavy. It's like gathering momentum enough to kind of like push that out of the frame, if that makes sense. And I kind of like this 语法解析
26:56
the sense of like the push and pull, because there's always that, right? There's always going to be some resistance to that. But I think there's more of it in the direction that, that we're talking about. That is really important that we, that we like to see. You may have to do a research trip to Miami because we've got some very strong women here. Awesome. I bet. So we we've talked about many of the benefits. I'm curious in researching the book of all the benefits, what really stood out to you? For me, 语法解析
27:22
for building strong muscle. Yeah. I think some of the benefits that we don't really, again, like because of this historic binary dichotomy between like a healthy brain and a healthy bot, like having this division between brain and body and muscle and body and how like if you were like, 语法解析
27:44
Really, if you were smart, you wouldn't be muscular. And if you were a big, strong athlete, muscle head, people used to call it that, that you were not intelligent. And it's funny because societally, culturally, that kind of still persists. There is still this idea of people telling athletes to stay in their lane when they speak about other things besides being an athlete and being smart. 语法解析
28:11
body in the world because they are people with opinions and intelligence and I think that sometimes there's still that funny sort of political separation. But what I learned from a scientific and research and physiological standpoint of aging and longevity with muscle, like the correlation of a 语法解析
28:32
of mental acuity as you get older is with so highly, highly correlated with physical strength and muscle and muscle mass and how much you are exercising. Because again, like we were talking about earlier, like your muscles are, your muscles are endocrine tissue. They're constantly sending out messengers all around, you know, to different parts of your body, telling them to do the job that they need to be doing. 语法解析
28:59
And they are, when you move and you exercise, they are sending these myokines to your brain to promote brain health, to stimulate areas of your brain to be active and to be doing the things into old age, older age. And if you're not moving, if you're not getting up and moving your body, your brain does not get that beautiful wash of messengers and chemicals from your muscles. 语法解析
29:26
And vice versa, right? Everything is kind of like is in this beautiful like loop. And I think that what with our… 语法解析
29:34
It's so complicated, right? There's so many factors. But I think that that is like, if you think about building, bulking up your muscles, bulks up your brain, I think that's just such a great way to think about it. It's literally true, right? I know you've had many, many guests who've underscored this science behind it. Your hippocampus, you know, being the center of learning and memory, like it's just… 语法解析
29:58
It grows when you exercise, when you move your muscles. And to know that, like, I think to just be to have that knowledge is very empowering to be like, I am not just moving my body to make it stronger. 语法解析
30:13
strong. I'm strengthening my brain for my future, for now and forever. And I think there's a reason why exercise feels good, right? It feels good when you move your body, you feel joyful when you're jumping around. And I think that the more that we can do things with our body that are fun and playful, like this is sending a message to ourselves that this is something that's good for us, you know, and there's a reason why that happens. 语法解析
30:42
And 语法解析
30:43
What was the biggest surprise when you were researching the book? Maybe it's a study, maybe it's filled with great anecdotes. What really stood out to you where you thought, hey, this is really interesting? I didn't know that the age-related loss of muscle started so early. I really didn't. I did not know that when you're in your 30s, you're already starting to lose that muscle mass. And so you actually need to be working against that trend 语法解析
31:11
from, I mean, as early as possible. And so I think that that was something that was really surprising to me. But also that the fact that even if you start later, even if you don't start till today, you're still going to get the benefits. And I think that's very hopeful. Like, I think that's very encouraging and inspiring that, you know, we've all seen these stories of 语法解析
31:34
of, you know, the, you know, seven-year-old grandma who starts lifting because her kid's like, you got to start, you know, you have to start training and, and I don't want you, I want you to be healthy. And, you know, drops all the meds now can take the flights of stairs, no aches and pains, you know, just it's, it's, I think the transformation that that can occur 语法解析
31:56
with your body, with muscle, strengthening it is amazing. Yes, agreed. And it just, it does get a little bit harder as you're older, but you can still experience results for sure, 100%. And you can still feel so… 语法解析
32:16
you can still feel so much better because you've done it. I think that's also really, you know, we talked about some of this, this, this, these ideas of like capability and just feeling really confident and who can't use more of that. I know that, 语法解析
32:33
Yeah, I was just talking to a friend. I was in the gym the other day and I was doing this deadlift. And again, like this kind of lifting, heavy, heavy weightlifting is new to me, right? It's relatively new to me. I've been swimming my whole life and I've been doing some form of weight training to some extent over the years, but… 语法解析
32:52
It was not something like this kind of focused, heavier weight training, the power lifts, right? And I just was, I loved this feeling of like setting up for the lift. You know, it's this marshalling of all of your resources. And then when you kind of go down and you pick up the weight, you feel, I felt like this amazing current from my head to my toes, like just being, feeling like totally grounded and like present in the world. And I just thought that was amazing. 语法解析
33:20
You know, you don't really feel that that often, like this grounding presence. And when you do, you're just like here and now in this moment. And I think that's just, I keep thinking about that. I keep thinking about how great that feeling is and how centering it is for me from a mental health standpoint. You know, like it just is just a moment in the day in which I feel here. 语法解析
33:44
And I'm real, you know, and I think that's really beautiful. It is. The way you speak about it, the way you write about muscle in the book, it feels almost meditative. And it's much bigger than just, you know, going to the gym and trying to crank out a workout mindlessly with your headphones on. And what I love so much about this is, you know, metaphorically, like, it's much bigger than just building muscle. 语法解析
34:12
It's emotional. It's mental. It's spiritual in some ways. You don't hear a lot of people talk about grounding and doing a heavy lift. 语法解析
34:24
And when I read the book, it kind of reframed how I think about working out and muscle and everything it represents. That makes me so happy. You know, I really did want to do that. And of course, I didn't know exactly when I set out to do it. I didn't really know how it was going to happen, right? So I knew I wanted to examine muscle in this very moment. 语法解析
34:49
surround sound way, right? But what were the stories? Who were the people? What were the themes? What were the… How would it all hang together? And of course, every book is different. And it did feel quite difficult. It did feel like I felt… 语法解析
35:06
The effort. I mean, it was effortful in many ways. And I think fitting for the task at hand and the topic at hand to examine this, not just the tangible stuff of muscle, but what it means to us all, like the metaphor, like all like the cultural meaning across time, because this is not just. And when I say just, it is the stuff that actually is like the stuff of movement and motion and how we this is how we exert ourselves on the world. 语法解析
35:35
and exert our influence on the world, but also metaphorically, this is how we exert our influence on the world. So what does it mean to show that? 语法解析
35:43
I was thinking about grip strength. Okay, so grip strength, as you know, is one of those things that is so indicative of health and longevity and sort of is like a funny marker. I mean, you talk about surprises. I was very interested to learn that it's so correlated with longevity. Yes. 语法解析
36:05
But then not just that, it's think about it. When you shake hands with someone, it's a greeting and you're kind of taking the measure of someone else. Like who's gripping it harder? You know, like everyone knows that feeling of like when someone is maybe gives you a limp noodle of a handshake. 语法解析
36:26
And what do you think of that person? Or if they give you a firm one, crisp one, you have a positive association with it. I mean, it's like everything we do in life comes back to something that our muscles are doing. Even something as simple and universal as a handshake. I mean, it's just really… 语法解析
36:48
That, to me, is a great example of how we don't think about and take for granted what our muscles allow us to do. From the simplest greeting to all of these like little, you know, talking to you, blinking at you, waving at you, you know, just everything. 语法解析
37:05
It's how we communicate. Yes. So what do you want every woman to know about muscle? Oh, it's for you. Really, that strength is for you. And I think that you don't have to look a certain way for it to be for you. It's about what it allows you to do best. 语法解析
37:25
more and better. And it is about feeling capable. It is about relying on yourself. I mean, I talk about in the book with my dad teaching me all of these exercises. I mean, we did like 语法解析
37:38
push-ups and pull-ups and everything from elementary school. I mean, we were crazy. My dad was crazy and also wonderful. I mean, it was this kind of like quirky muscle academy that we were doing. I love it. He sounds awesome, by the way. He's my type of guy. You should see what I make our kids do. I'm going to send you a photo of him. You are going to be like, what? Who is this guy? He looks, I mean, he's just right. Muscle is fountain of youth. That's him. What I learned from him is 语法解析
38:05
not just about lifting heavy things. It's about lifting myself. And I think that's a message that I want to send out there with this book because 语法解析
38:16
Lifting and getting stronger and building muscle is not about… The most important thing is not about how it makes you look, although, of course, that can help you build confidence. It's about what it allows you to do. So that is about capability and ability and feeling that you are an agent. You have agency in the world. And I think that that is something that we all… 语法解析
38:42
you know, really need to feel. Amen. Bonnie, we covered so much today. Other than picking up the book, I'll hold it up on muscle. Is there anything we didn't cover that you want to cover before we wrap up? I want to know what your favorite muscle is. What are your favorite muscles? 语法解析
38:58
muscles that you think about. And also, I think that you associate with yourself, because I think one of the things that was so fun about researching muscle was that learning that muscles have different real personalities, right? They do different things. And so when we think about them, we attribute different qualities to them. 语法解析
39:15
And I wanted to know what you think about. You know, I don't know if I have a favorite. If I were to go back in time… So I played basketball in college and everyone loves to jump high. And you equate that with the calf. So I would… 语法解析
39:28
My quick gut reaction would probably be the calf muscle because that was usually associated with one's ability to jump. Right. And so that's what I would say. Today, probably not. You know, who knows? Most men would probably say arms. That's my guess. You know what, though? My husband's calves were the first muscles I noticed about him because he would bike around. 语法解析
39:51
Really? Yeah. And he had like soccer player calves and he would bike around and I would see those calves and think, 语法解析
39:58
That's a good looking set of calves. So don't knock them. No, I don't. I think they're generally… I'm going to make a huge generalization. I think most great athletes probably… I can't think of… I'm visualizing on my head of all the great male athletes. I can't think of a great male athlete who didn't have strong calves. If I'm thinking… 语法解析
40:26
And I'm thinking probably, you know, basketball, football, like the sports that I track and feel like I just, I can't think of one. So to me, it's, I think I value athleticism as being a former athlete. So that's what… 语法解析
40:40
You know, you can kind of have, you always see people, you see guys at the gym, you could tell like that can be, you know, have the muscles, but like they don't like the cat. I don't know. That's for me. It's the, the calves I think are a little bit harder to get or maybe, or maybe signify athleticism. And now, now I don't know what I'm saying. I love also like the cross admiration of athletes to, to, 语法解析
41:05
like across sports to the muscles um that they admire like i think i always think about i think it was in the olympics when i think kevin durant went to watch like so many people went to watch simone biles and he i i'm pretty sure he said something like i wish i had cows like that so yeah yeah 语法解析
41:27
I think in the early 2000s, I was living in Washington, D.C., and this is when Michael Jordan was making a comeback and playing for the Wizards. And every once in a while, he was living above the gym I went to. And every once in a while, I would see him at the gym at 7 a.m. They could have played the night before, and he'd be there lifting at 7 a.m. And I just remember being in awe of his physicality. 语法解析
41:52
and his muscles and his butt and his work ethic where I almost had the view where if I didn't know that was Michael Jordan, you looked at him and said, that person is an exceptional athlete. Right. Just the grace, right? I mean, there's something, so that's something we didn't talk about today, which was grace, right? Like you're talking about a person, you're talking about Michael Jordan. Let's say you didn't know it was him. You still knew 语法解析
42:16
That he was a person who inhabited his body with something incredible, like an exceptional grace probably is what it is. And what is grace? It's like this… 语法解析
42:30
coordination, right, of all of the muscles. But in a way that is exhibits a kind of efficiency and minimal wasted movement kind of thing, right? It's like a refinement of all of the movements. It's about the control. And I loved thinking about what that was, actually, in terms of muscle, because we know it when we see it. But what is it? Like, it's 语法解析
42:57
There's something, it's as if that person is moving through the world effortlessly. But we also know that nothing is effortless when it comes to physical movement. And so what went, what is behind all of that? It's years and years of practice and discipline and refinement of those movements such that they appear to be that way. And I think that's also important. 语法解析
43:24
what it is. It's the work behind it that you don't see. I think you're hitting on the athleticism. You know, we watch a lot of women's basketball, women's volleyball, women's soccer in our house. We have two little girls. They love those sports. And it's just the strength of these women and how quickly, but also it looks so effortlessly. And they're also so forceful in 语法解析
43:49
And it is just, to your point, all the work that is required to move so quickly, so strongly, and have it look so effortlessly. That I think is what I'm in awe of. It's gorgeous. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, at the same time, while striving for that, I think it's okay to show your work, right? To show the work. And I think that's what 语法解析
44:15
muscle is and what muscle kind of reminds you of, that it is like your work on display, kind of. And that's okay. That's a good thing. It does take that investment and it does take that dedication. And that's kind of beautiful. Yes. And it's amazing that girls and women of all ages can watch that on TV now. 语法解析
44:41
It didn't happen years ago. Yeah, we didn't get to do that. We didn't get to do that. So I'm glad that they get to have that. Well, Bonnie, thank you so much. Love the book, On Muscle. Everyone pick it up. Thank you. It was great to talk to you. 语法解析
Edit:2025.04.21
01:22-02:30 嘉宾与主题介绍
嘉宾：Bonnie Swee（获奖记者、畅销书作家），新书《On Muscle》探讨肌肉的科学、历史和文化意义。 背景：
Bonnie解释创作动机：
历史观念：
科学依据：
Bonnie的审美视角：
Bonnie特别提到肩膀的多元价值：
故事亮点：
积极变化：
科学发现：
Bonnie的惊喜：
Bonnie总结：
Bonnie呼吁关注女性运动员的可见性，鼓励女孩拥抱力量。推荐书籍《On Muscle》，对话结束。
核心主题：肌肉超越生理层面，是文化、性别平等、自我认同的载体，科学证实其终身可塑性，女性力量训练是健康与赋权的双重选择
Edit:2025.04.21
本期嘉宾Bonnie ，她是一位获奖记者和畅销书作家，最新著作《On Muscle》深入探讨了肌肉的科学、历史和文化意义。Bonnie的成长背景非常独特，她的父亲既是艺术家又是武术爱好者，从小培养她和兄弟对身体的重视，甚至戏称他们为“小忍者”。这种艺术与运动结合的家庭环境塑造了Bonnie对身体功能与美学的双重理解。
Bonnie解释了写这本书的动机。她希望延续前作《Why We Swim》对身体话题的探讨，但这次将范围扩展到陆地活动。她认为肌肉虽然常被忽视，但实际上涉及科学、文化、性别、权力等多个维度。她特别关注女性与肌肉的关系，指出历史上肌肉长期被等同于“男性气质”，而现代社会已不再需要依赖体力生存，因此这种观念正在改变。近年来，越来越多的女性开始进行力量训练，追求增肌而非单纯减重，这标志着女性对身体力量的重新定义。
Bonnie还深入探讨了肌肉的健康价值。从30岁开始，人体肌肉会随年龄逐渐流失（尤其是女性更年期后），但任何时候开始力量训练都不算晚。肌肉不仅影响身体功能，还与大脑健康密切相关。运动时，肌肉释放的激素（如肌动蛋白）能促进脑部健康，甚至提升认知能力。她举例说，学校里的体育课表现好的学生，往往在学业上也有更好的表现，这证明了“肌肉-大脑”之间的紧密联系。
在讨论肌肉的“美”时，Bonnie从艺术史的角度分析，古希腊雕塑虽然不了解肌肉的解剖学结构，却通过刻画肌肉线条来表现力量与美感。文艺复兴时期的艺术家（如米开朗基罗）则通过解剖研究，更精确地呈现肌肉的形态。她认为，肌肉赋予身体“完整性”，其力量感至今仍被推崇。
Bonnie特别提到“肩膀”的象征意义。从功能上看，肩膀由17块肌肉协同工作，影响日常动作（如拿杯子、打字）；从隐喻角度看，英语中“to shoulder something”意为承担责任，强壮的肩膀代表挺拔的姿态；从美学角度看，肩膀的轮廓即使在衣着遮掩下依然明显，能拓宽视觉上的身形。
Bonnie还分享了女性力量训练先驱Jan Todd的故事。Jan是首位女性力量举世界冠军，曾打破多项纪录，甚至举起了苏格兰传说中的“男子气概石”（Dinnie Stones）。在70年代，女性缺乏运动机会，但Jan通过举重发现了自己的潜力。她的故事不仅打破了“女性不能强壮”的偏见，还推动了女子力量比赛的发展（如Arnold Strongman赛事）。Bonnie认为，Jan的经历证明“强壮”与“女性气质”可以共存，这对当代女性健身文化产生了深远影响。
谈到当代女性健身趋势，Bonnie指出，越来越多的女性开始接受力量训练，运动员如橄榄球选手Alona Marr以幽默感打破了“强壮女性缺乏魅力”的刻板印象。年轻女孩现在有了更多肌肉发达的女性榜样（如体操运动员Simone Biles），这有助于她们建立积极的自我认同。不过，Bonnie也提到，社会仍存在对女性肌肉的偏见，比如认为女性应该“适度”锻炼以避免变得“太壮”。她强调，增肌实际上需要刻意努力，健康收益应优先于审美标签。
在讨论肌肉与大脑健康的关联时，Bonnie分享了科学研究：肌肉是内分泌组织，运动时释放的物质能促进海马体（记忆中枢）的生长；握力强度甚至可以预测长寿概率，反映整体健康状况。她批评了历史上将“肌肉发达”与“智力低下”错误关联的观念，指出运动实际上能提升认知能力。
Bonnie还分享了她在研究中的意外发现：肌肉流失从30岁就开始了，但任何时候开始训练都不算晚。她举例说，一位70岁的祖母通过举重显著改善了健康状况。此外，力量训练不仅能增强身体，还能带来心理上的满足感。Bonnie描述了自己在健身房进行硬拉时的体验——那种“全身电流感”让她感到前所未有的专注和存在感，几乎像是一种冥想状态。
最后，Bonnie总结了她的核心观点：肌肉属于所有女性，无论体型如何，关乎“能力与自主性”。她回忆起父亲教导的“举起自己”哲学，认为力量训练不仅是身体锻炼，更是培养自我信赖的过程。主持人分享了他对“小腿肌肉”的偏爱，认为它象征运动能力（如篮球弹跳），而Bonnie则笑称她丈夫的“自行车运动员小腿”曾深深吸引她。两人还讨论了运动员的“优雅”表现（如迈克尔·乔丹），认为这种看似轻松的动作背后是多年的肌肉控制训练。
Bonnie呼吁社会更多地关注女性运动员的可见性，鼓励女孩们拥抱力量。再次强调：肌肉不仅是生理组织，更是文化、性别平等和自我认同的载体。科学已经证明，肌肉具有终身可塑性，而女性力量训练不仅是健康的选择，也是一种自我赋权的方式。
Edit:2025.04.21
