大脑 Alex Hutchinson

@Alex Hutchinson : 我对探索的兴趣源于孩童时期对探索的向往，以及对自身持续追求新事物的原因的探究。这促使我写了一本关于探索的书，探讨了人类探索背后的科学原理和心理机制。我发现，探索的驱动力既来自探索带来的实际好处，也来自探索本身带来的愉悦感。这种愉悦感源于进化层面，探索在过去为人类带来了生存优势。然而，我们不应过度追求新奇，而应将探索与学习和自我提升结合起来。 人类对探索的渴望程度存在差异，这是自然选择的结果。不同程度的探索欲对社会都有益处，既需要勇于开拓的人，也需要稳守家园的人。现代社会对天生具有探索欲的人来说，可能是一种挑战，但仍然存在许多探索的空间。大约5万年前，人类基因中发生了一种突变，增强了对新奇事物的敏感度，促进了人类的探索行为。多巴胺并非简单的快乐化学物质，它与预期和惊喜有关。我们可以通过区分探索带来的知识和愉悦感，来更有效地利用多巴胺，避免空虚的刺激。人们可能会对多巴胺上瘾，但关键在于这种上瘾是否对生活造成负面影响。探索的核心在于不确定性，我们被未知的事物吸引，这是一种内在的驱动力。我们被不确定性吸引，是因为它能让我们学习新的知识。不确定性存在一个最佳点，过高或过低都不利于探索。儿童能够更好地感知和应对中等程度的不确定性，而成年人则可能因为社会规范而丧失这种能力。努力的悖论：努力的过程虽然艰难，但却能带来满足感和意义感。努力是获得意义感的一种方式。过度追求未来的回报，可能会导致无法享受到当下的快乐。探索-利用困境没有简单的公式，但我们可以通过“不确定性奖金”和“面对不确定性的乐观”来更好地进行决策。最小化后悔的关键在于，在长期来看，要尽可能地减少与最佳结果之间的差距。大脑中存在认知地图，用于映射想法和社会关系，探索和利用也适用于认知领域。好奇心是促使我们探索的驱动力，两者密切相关。弗林效应表明智商在不断提高，但创造力却可能在下降。运动对心理健康有益，但其具体机制尚不明确。运动对大脑健康有积极影响，可以延缓或减轻认知能力下降。有氧运动对大脑健康益处最大，但选择自己喜欢的运动形式更重要。二区训练和VO2max训练都是有效的训练方式，关键在于找到平衡。在生活中，我尽量避免使用导航，以促进海马体的使用和探索。即使害怕不确定性，也可以从小事做起，逐渐尝试探索。

我最近与科学记者、前物理学家兼作家Alex Hutchinson进行了一次深入的访谈，探讨了人类探索背后的驱动力，以及如何在生活中平衡探索与稳定。这次对话让我对探索的本质、多巴胺的作用以及人生设计有了更深刻的理解。

Hutchinson的探索之旅始于孩提时代对探险的热爱，以及成年后对自身持续追求新事物原因的好奇。这促使他撰写了新书，深入研究人类探索背后的科学原理和心理机制。他指出，人类探索的动力并非单一因素，而是来自探索带来的实际益处和探索过程中的愉悦感两方面。这种愉悦感源于进化，因为在过去，探索行为帮助人类获得了生存优势。然而，他强调，我们不应沉迷于毫无意义的新奇刺激，而应将探索与学习、自我提升相结合，使探索更有价值。

人类对探索的渴望程度并非一致，这源于自然选择。社会需要既有勇于开拓进取的探险家，也有稳守家园、巩固成果的人。虽然现代社会对天生具有强烈探索欲的人来说可能存在挑战，但Hutchinson认为，仍然存在许多值得探索的领域。他提到，大约五万年前，人类基因中发生的一次突变增强了对新奇事物的敏感性，这在一定程度上解释了人类的探索行为。

关于多巴胺，Hutchinson纠正了人们对其作为“快乐化学物质”的误解。他解释道，多巴胺的释放并非源于快乐本身，而是源于超出预期的惊喜。这种机制驱动着我们探索未知，但也可能导致成瘾行为。他建议我们区分探索带来的知识和愉悦感，从而更有效地利用多巴胺，避免空虚的刺激。他认为，对多巴胺的“上瘾”关键在于其是否对生活造成负面影响，而非单纯的享受。

探索的核心在于不确定性。我们被未知事物吸引，这是一种内在的驱动力。Hutchinson解释说，我们并非单纯地喜欢“不知道”，而是喜欢“知道”。对不确定性的追求，驱使我们学习新的知识，拓展认知边界。然而，不确定性也存在一个最佳点，过高或过低都会降低探索的吸引力。儿童比成年人更善于感知和应对中等程度的不确定性，这可能是因为成年人受到社会规范的更多约束。

Hutchinson还提到了“努力的悖论”：努力的过程虽然艰难，但却能带来满足感和意义感。他认为，努力本身就是一种获得意义感的方式。然而，过度追求未来的回报，可能会导致我们无法享受到当下的快乐。

关于探索与利用的平衡，Hutchinson指出，没有简单的公式可以指导我们何时探索，何时利用。但他提出了两个实用的策略：“不确定性奖金”和“面对不确定性的乐观”。前者建议我们在决策时，为那些我们了解较少的选项增加额外的权重；后者则建议我们关注每个选项中最好的可能结果，并在不确定性中保持乐观。长期来看，这种策略可以最大限度地减少后悔。

Hutchinson还将探索的概念扩展到认知领域。他解释说，大脑中存在认知地图，用于映射想法和社会关系。探索和利用的策略同样适用于认知领域，例如，在创意和想法生成方面。他认为，好奇心是促使我们探索的驱动力，两者密切相关。

谈到现代社会，Hutchinson提到弗林效应：智商在不断提高，但创造力却可能在下降。他认为，这可能与现代社会对抽象思维的更高要求，以及信息过载有关。

关于运动与大脑健康，Hutchinson总结了现有研究：运动对大脑健康有积极影响，可以延缓或减轻认知能力下降。他认为，有氧运动对大脑健康益处最大，但选择自己喜欢的运动形式更重要。他还讨论了二区训练和VO2max训练的有效性，并强调两者之间的平衡。

在生活中，Hutchinson 尽量避免使用导航，以鼓励自己更多地利用海马体进行空间认知，并保持探索的习惯。他建议，即使害怕不确定性，也可以从小事做起，逐渐尝试探索，在生活中寻找惊喜。

总而言之，Hutchinson的观点强调了探索在人生中的重要性，以及如何在生活中平衡探索与稳定，在不确定性中保持乐观，并从中获得意义和快乐。 他的建议并非要人们放弃舒适区，而是鼓励人们在生活中留出空间去体验惊喜，去学习和成长。

Modern Wisdom⋅1d ago

Alex Hutchinson is a science journalist, former physicist, and an author. Why are humans wired to ex

 

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01:33 我对探索的兴趣源于孩童时期对探索的向往，以及对自身持续追求新事物的原因的探究。

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04:00 人类进行探索的原因有两个：探索带来好处，以及探索本身令人愉悦。

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04:51 探索令人愉悦是因为它在进化层面带来了好处，但我们不应该过度追求新奇。

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05:31 人类对探索的渴望程度存在差异，这是自然选择的结果，不同程度的探索欲对社会都有益处。

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06:59 现代社会对天生具有探索欲的人来说，可能是一种挑战，但仍然存在许多探索的空间。

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08:35 大约5万年前，人类基因中发生了一种突变，增强了对新奇事物的敏感度，促进了人类的探索行为。

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10:38 多巴胺并非简单的快乐化学物质，它与预期和惊喜有关。

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11:47 多巴胺并非简单的快乐化学物质，多巴胺禁食的说法缺乏坚实的科学依据。

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13:36 我们可以通过区分探索带来的知识和愉悦感，来更有效地利用多巴胺，避免空虚的刺激。

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15:41 人们可能会对多巴胺上瘾，但关键在于这种上瘾是否对生活造成负面影响。

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18:39 探索的核心在于不确定性，我们被未知的事物吸引，这是一种内在的驱动力。

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20:01 我们被不确定性吸引，是因为它能让我们学习新的知识。

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20:27 不确定性存在一个最佳点，过高或过低都不利于探索。

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24:38 儿童能够更好地感知和应对中等程度的不确定性，而成年人则可能因为社会规范而丧失这种能力。

◉

30:30 努力的悖论：努力的过程虽然艰难，但却能带来满足感和意义感。

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32:21 努力是获得意义感的一种方式。

◉

36:49 过度追求未来的回报，可能会导致无法享受到当下的快乐。

◉

40:19 探索-利用困境没有简单的公式，但我们可以通过“不确定性奖金”和“面对不确定性的乐观”来更好地进行决策。

◉

43:39 最小化后悔的关键在于，在长期来看，要尽可能地减少与最佳结果之间的差距。

◉

45:31 大脑中存在认知地图，用于映射想法和社会关系，探索和利用也适用于认知领域。

◉

47:53 好奇心是促使我们探索的驱动力，两者密切相关。

◉

48:33 弗林效应表明智商在不断提高，但创造力却可能在下降。

◉

50:38 运动对心理健康有益，但其具体机制尚不明确。

◉

53:45 运动对大脑健康有积极影响，可以延缓或减轻认知能力下降。

◉

55:30 有氧运动对大脑健康益处最大，但选择自己喜欢的运动形式更重要。

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57:14 二区训练和VO2max训练都是有效的训练方式，关键在于找到平衡。

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59:42 在生活中，我尽量避免使用导航，以促进海马体的使用和探索。

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01:02:53 即使害怕不确定性，也可以从小事做起，逐渐尝试探索。

00:00

Episode 46 to episode 916, something like that. You had to do 900 more people before you were ready for me again. It's very important. That was the level of tank emptying that I went through just having a straight-up conversation with you. It's great. I was saying before we started, it's really cool to watch the arc of people who you get to collaborate with and how that sort of progresses over time. Yeah, I mean… 语法解析

00:27

Exactly back at you. I've been thinking a lot in the days leading up to this interview of like, wow, you know, 2018, things were very different for both of us. And 语法解析

00:37

The conversation I had with you in 2018 was such a pleasant surprise. And I'm glad to see that other people thought that your interview abilities were as good as I did. Yeah, well, we'll see if I can keep you… No pressure, no pressure. I was going to say, so the pleasant uncertainty today abound. We'll see what I can achieve. You've got interested in explorers. Why? What's interesting about explorers? 语法解析

01:03

Yeah. I mean, what's not interesting about explorers? So where did this book start? I mean, since I was like five years old, I loved the idea of pretending that I was an explorer in the woods discovering things. But really, I think this book started actually around the time we spoke after my last book came out. I wrote a book about endurance in 2018, and this is not intended as a gratuitous plug for that book, but the book did well. And it was the culmination of about 语法解析

01:33

10 years, let's say, of really focusing in on the science of endurance, really narrowing and narrowing on an ever-decreasing specialty. And it did well enough that I was like, hey, cool, I can be the science of endurance guy for the rest of my life. I can coast on, you know, I should start working on Endure 2, you know, revenge of the science of endurance. And there's a lot of reasons that that would have been a really smart thing to do. 语法解析

01:56

But I couldn't shake the feeling that it actually didn't sound that interesting to me. And I got interested in my lack of interest. I wondered, why do I have this pull to do something new? And it connected with a lot of other areas of my life. Why, when I go on vacations, do I like to try and get as far away, far off the beaten track as I can? Why am I always pulled to the unknown? And so I decided, actually, I'd kind of like to know the answers to those questions. Maybe I'll research that and turn that into my next book. 语法解析

02:22

Yeah, it's the difficult second album, especially if you've had some success with what you did first. My editor was very reassuring to me. He kept telling me, second books are the hardest because this one was a struggle. This one was, it was a year late. Like I'll say that I missed the deadline by a year, which is not something that's usual for me. I'm usually a pretty good deadline hitter. 语法解析

02:44

And I really, really struggled because it was, first of all, yeah, there's expectations, there's living up to previous work. But also this topic is such a big one. So when I say I'm interested in exploration, it's like, oh, you mean Christopher Columbus or whatever? And I'm like, yes, and? 语法解析

03:02

And, you know, when you go to a restaurant, do you order the same thing or do you try something new and on your career path and in your dating life and all these other things? So I suddenly realized that I was basically writing about the world. And so I could have, you know, I could have the topic, the more threads I pulled, the bigger the topic got. And eventually, bless my editor, I was like, yeah, I think I can get you something by April. And he's like, no, I'm going to need it by February 15th. I was like, oh, thank God he gave me a deadline. 语法解析

03:29

Okay, why are humans drawn to explore then? What is it that's in us that causes this to happen? 语法解析

03:35

Well, there's two ways we can answer that question. One reason is we explore because it leads to good things. If you're not just staying in the same sphere, if you're branching out, looking, trying to figure out what's over the horizon, you will eventually discover better things and you will have better restaurant meals and a better career and you will find a better place to live and blah, blah, blah. So a very sort of utilitarian exploring leads to good things. 语法解析

04:00

The other way of answering it is exploring feels good. It's like, it's exciting to go somewhere new to discover something you haven't encountered before. 语法解析

04:08

And those two things go together, right? Like the reason exploring feels good is because on an evolutionary level, it led to good things. So it's in the same way that sugar is sweet and it leads us to seek calories. Exploring feels good and that leads us to expand our world and discover better ways of doing things. Those two things kind of in the same way that just because sugar is sweet doesn't mean we should always pursue the taste of sugar doesn't mean that we should always pursue novelty now. That, that, 语法解析

04:34

Scrolling through social media taps into that circuitry, that desire for new things. It maybe doesn't teach us about the world, but ultimately, exploring is good because it teaches us about the world and it's very satisfying. It's a route to meaning, I think. 语法解析

04:51

Yeah, the sort of adaptive reason for why humans need to explore. And I imagine as well that there's a big distribution when it comes to how exploratory people want to be, because it wouldn't work for an entire tribe to just be full of people that want to climb up that hill over there. You need some people that are going to stay behind you. You can go up the hill. I'm going to make sure that we don't all die. 语法解析

05:14

That's exactly right. Genetics is called this frequency-dependent selection. And it's like, if you look at human height, we've all kind of converged to a pretty similar range. There's a good height to be for a human. But if you look at things like introversion and extroversion or aggressiveness and things like that, 语法解析

05:31

It's actually good to have a big mix of characteristics. You need some people with some characteristics and others with others. So exploring is absolutely one of those where, and you can see this and there's really neat data in, for example, in hunter-gatherers where the more exploratory people, they thrive when they're hunting and gathering. And the more sort of, I'm going to stay back and I'm going to consolidate what we know, they do well when 语法解析

05:58

when they're in for agriculture, you know, they, they tend to be better nurse. So it's like, and in any one society, you need people who are pushing the boundaries, but you also need people who are keeping the fires burning at home. Does that suggest as more of the world has been explored that the world is now owned by the people who aren't explorers? Well, I think a good example of that would be something like ADHD, which maybe this is something we'll get into, but there's a gene that's linked to 语法解析

06:27

the desire to explore, which is also linked to ADHD. And so we might say, that gene was awesome 50,000 years ago when we were hunter-gatherers and the world was unexplored and we were trying to figure out how things worked and where we could go. 语法解析

06:42

That gene is a pain in the neck if you're a nine-year-old boy sitting in school being told, please sit still for the next 10 hours. So there are certainly ways that in the modern world, being a born explorer is like being a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. 语法解析

06:59

There's still lots of scope, I would argue. One of the conclusions that I came away with that makes me feel good is that actually there's still lots of scope for exploration in the world. Even though there's no continents to discover, there's a lot of ways that we can explore. So I think it's a matter of finding a way to harness your inclination, whether that's to be really exploratory or maybe less so. All right. Talk to me about the genetics of exploration then. Yeah. So… 语法解析

07:26

Genetics is obviously, it's a fraught topic, right? So I want to be- Not here, Alex. You're among safe friends here. We've all taken the behavioral genetics red pill. Nobody's going to hear this except you and me, right? So this is okay. Precisely correct. Yeah. So about 50,000 years ago, 语法解析

07:42

Humans started to spread out across the globe. So there are various humans and human ancestors and various species that had come and gone and bounced around in Africa, Europe, Asia for hundreds of thousands of years. But about 50,000 years ago, things got serious. And all of a sudden, humans started to spread to every habitable spot on the globe, literally. So they're making it to Easter Island. They're making it to the southern tip of South America. They're making it to the Arctic. 语法解析

08:09

Another thing that happened about 50,000 years ago is that there was a random genetic mutation to a dopamine receptor in our brains, a receptor called DRD4, that basically, for the people who got this mutation, it amped up their sensitivity to dopamine such that they got a bigger kick out of discovering something new or unexpected, finding novelty. 语法解析

08:35

And it's what's very interesting. One of the nuggets of science that got me interested in this topic that told me there's something more to say other than just like, hey, it's nice to discover new things, is that if you look at populations around the world and you trace how far they've had to migrate, they had to migrate to get to their current location over the sort of tens of thousands of years since they left Africa. 语法解析

09:00

The farther that population had to migrate, the higher the proportion of the explorer's version of this DRD4 gene, the one that makes people seek and like novelty. And so at the southern tip of South America, you've got populations that have, you know, 80% of them have this explorer's gene. And, you know, in parts of Europe, you've got places where people have, you know, 10 or 20% have the explorer's version of the gene. 语法解析

09:22

This doesn't mean that everybody in South America explores and nobody in Europe does, but it's a sign that this behavior is wired into us somehow because we all have the DRD4 gene. We all have the same reward circuitry that makes us sensitive or attracted to novelty. It's just some people have a bigger helping of it than others. 语法解析

09:44

So I did a huge DNA analysis at the back end of last year, and I've run, I knew that I was going to speak to you today. So I asked ChatGPT to go through my DNA report. Yes, you have a variant of the DRD4 dopamine receptor D4 gene. Your specific result is CA for the DRD4 C8887A variant. If you had two copies AA of this variant, you would be more likely to respond to stimulants due to lower baseline dopamine activity. Since you have one copy, CA, you are less likely to respond to stimulants. 语法解析

10:12

Interesting. So dopamine is super complicated, right? It affects our lives in many, many different ways. But you can think of novelty and drugs, for example. One way of thinking about dopamine is that you don't get a hit of dopamine when something is good. You get a hit when something is better than expected. Right. 语法解析

10:38

So that's part of the reason why it drives us to explore, because if you go in a place where you don't know what to expect, that's a great way to find something that exceeds your expectations. But it also, it's the same kind of thing that drives actually addictive behavior. You take a drug for the first time, it's, whoa, it's better than you expected. You want to do that again. 语法解析

10:58

You take it for the 10th time, you know exactly what to expect. So there's no more prediction error. You don't get the dopamine hit. The only way to do that is to amp up the dose to get more because then you can surprise yourself. So there's a connection between a lot of risk-seeking behaviors and a lot of addictive behaviors, gambling behaviors. So exploring is great, but it's this… 语法解析

11:22

This drive can be harnessed in productive ways. It can also lead us down some less productive ways, let's say. What's the truth and the BS behind dopamine that you've learned? I think the biggest misconception, let's say, about dopamine is that it's like the pleasure chemical, that it's what you get when you feel good. In fact, this has been known for 20 or 30 years that it's actually… 语法解析

11:47

You don't get a hit of dopamine, again, when something is good. You get it when it's better than expected. So it's about expectation. So it's about wanting something more than having it. The pleasure of having something, that's like endogenous morphine, basically, endorphins. The pleasure of wanting something, dopamine is related to that. But the brain repurposes the same channels for different communications. So every time, I'll be honest, I had hoped to have the definitive theory of dopamine like 语法解析

12:15

People, I'm going to tell you what dopamine does. Here it is. Here's the truth. Here's the myth. And my impression after spending an awful lot of time talking to scientists and reading the papers is that even scientists aren't entirely sure the full story of dopamine right now. So the message I would hope people would take away is it's not just a pleasure chemical and that the dopamine fasting idea, the idea that, oh, we get too much dopamine in society today, 语法解析

12:45

It's one of those things where I think the scientific underpinnings of that are not solid. It doesn't mean I think the advice is bad to actually try and, you know, maybe not always, you know, be the rat pressing the button saying, give me more, give me more, give me more. But dopamine is a lot harder to pin down than that. 语法解析

13:05

How do you or how can people design their lives so that they use dopamine more effectively or so that they can get more dopamine without having to do something insanely extreme or get addicted to meth? Yeah, which is always a good plan. I think I would go back to that distinction I made before between exploring can lead you to learn about the world and exploring can make you feel good. And I would say 语法解析

13:36

The dopamine part, like I think when we talk about dopamine, we're using it as a shorthand for saying, let's do the things that give us a rush that feel good. And often that's mediated by dopamine. I think it's worth being thoughtful about, is this good feeling, does it align with also teaching me about the world or teaching me about myself, taking me in somewhere that's worth going? Or is this just empty calories? Is this the equivalent of just tearing open sugar packets and pouring them down my throat? 语法解析

14:08

Or am I eating an apple, which is giving me some nice sugar, but it's also giving me a bunch of other things that are useful. So I know it's easy to beat up on TikTok or whatever and say, oh, we're just wasting our lives with… Or even technology in general, right? For the last 20 years, we can say, oh, modern technology is rotting our brains. And I don't think that's true or fair, but I think… 语法解析

14:32

There are times when I sit scrolling the internet where I really am just sitting there like the rat pressing the button saying, give me something else that surprises me. Give me something else that's interesting. Give me something else that outrages me. And when I do that, I'm tapping into my exploring circuitry. I'm tapping into my dopamine circuitry. 语法解析

14:50

But I'm generally not like, I don't finish and I'm like, wow, I'm a better person than I was, you know, six hours ago when I sat down in the chair. So there are other ways of exploring, be it reading a book or even on the internet, seeking out deliberately something where you're like, I'm going to learn something. I'm going to tune into Chris's show and I'm going to, you know, hear a great conversation with that nice Alex guy. You know, or what, you know, like I'm joking here, but 语法解析

15:17

it's not that we don't want to get those hits. It's just that it's great if they also are leading us in a way that, that is worthwhile too. Can people become too addicted to dopamine? Is that something that you've seen? You know, there's a really interesting book by, uh, Anna Lembke, Dopamine Nation, which really gets into the, the addictive elements of dopamine. And, and I, uh, 语法解析

15:41

It's a little embarrassing when I'm thinking of like, what are the examples I remember from the books? There were a lot of examples of people who were like addicted to masturbating. And I just remember being like, whoa, that's a rough road to travel. I mean, how uncomfortable is that going to be after a while? So yeah, I think you can. And I think at least Annalenki makes a pretty compelling case that this is really a case of being addicted to dopamine. I think addiction is… 语法解析

16:06

It's a word that carries a lot of weight and sometimes gets like, so look, I'm a runner, right? And so there's a lot of discussions about is running addictive? Do people get addicted to running? Do those people who have to get up every morning and go for the run, are they addicted to the endorphins or the endocannabinoids or whatever it is? And it's like, well, do they feel worse if they don't go for a run? Yeah, they feel worse if they don't go for a run. 语法解析

16:28

Uh, so in some neurochem, you know, in some neurochemical sense, you could say they're addicted to it. When you, if you talk to like psychologists about the definition of addiction, there's other criteria, like, is it interfering with their life? Like, are they neglecting their family? Are there kids sitting at home saying, I wish I could have breakfast, but mommy had to go for a three hour run. 语法解析

16:47

If that's the case, then it's an addiction that's having a negative effect. And that's what we usually mean by addiction, not just that it's something that we like doing every day. It's like, I'm addicted to having breakfast. It's like, well, I need to have breakfast, but it's not like a problem in my life. And so with dopamine, it's like, yeah, there are people who are masturbating nine times a day, apparently. So I read in this book, and that's probably not good. Most of us, I think it's more just like, we may get in these loops and these cycles where we're 语法解析

17:14

You know, I certainly know this feeling of like, oh, where did that hour go? I just sat here on social media and I don't, you know, I had things I needed to do and that was not optimal. But I wouldn't say like I'm addicted to it or anything like that. It's just a suboptimal use of time. Is there some link between dopamine and our sense of the passage of time? 语法解析

17:34

That's interesting. I think I don't actually know the, the, uh, I will confess that I, that that's not a, that's not a top. I mean, the passage of time is, is, is a super interesting topic with like, 语法解析

17:45

effort. And I know that the harder you run, for example, the more time slows down and they've done careful studies on that. I would imagine dopamine might play a role in that, but I think there's also probably other neurotransmitters, but also just the psychological perception. But yeah, there's definitely a time warp when you're sitting at the internet and all of a sudden you're like, what the hell? How did that happen? All right. Talk to me about uncertainty. What's the role that uncertainty plays? 语法解析

18:11

I think if we're trying to define exploring, there are a few elements. I think the first and foremost one is the outcome of what you're choosing to do has to be uncertain. Maybe you could also argue there needs to be struggle and some other elements like that, but the uncertainty is really at the core of what we're talking about, not knowing what's going to happen. It's not even just like, 语法解析

18:39

Should I take the 50-50 bet or the 30-70 bet? It's like, I don't even know what the odds are. I don't know what's going to happen if I go in this direction. But the only way I'm going to find out is by taking the path to the right that I don't know where it leads. And you can argue in a number of different ways, including with neuroscience, that we're wired 语法解析

19:06

to pursue uncertainty, to like uncertainty. There's data sets on how people order food from Deliveroo, the food delivery company. The Harvard scientists analyzed 1.6 million orders to figure out how do we decide what we want. And one of the insights was that 语法解析

19:27

All else being equal, if the ratings are equal, if the price is equal, we tend to have a bias toward things we know less about, both in the sense that if I've never tried this before, I want to try it. But also, we look at two restaurants, they're the same. One has 100 ratings and the other has 10 ratings, even if they both are four-star restaurants. It's like, I'll go for the one that's only been rated 10 times because I know less about it. So 语法解析

19:53

Uncertainty is attractive to us in an intrinsic way. And the key point is that it's not that we love not knowing stuff. It's that we love knowing stuff. 语法解析

20:01

And by being attracted to uncertainty, it draws us to the best possible ways of learning about the world. Because if you stick with the stuff you know, you don't learn anything new. Presumably, there has to be a sweet spot, though. Too much uncertainty would just feel like chaos. Absolutely. And so in some of the papers, they call it the… I'm not even sure how to pronounce this. I'm going to go with the Wundt curve. Although I think in Vienna, they would probably say the Wundt curve. 语法解析

20:27

There's a famous German psychologist, pioneering German psychologist in the 1800s named Wilhelm Wundt. And he proposed this idea, this sort of stimulus response curve that's a very general phenomenon where it's like for any given stimulus, if it's weak, we don't really find it very interesting. As it gets stronger, we find it more and more compelling. But if it gets too strong… 语法解析

20:49

understandably, we're like, yeah, we don't like that anymore. And so for uncertainty, there's a lot of evidence that this is the case, even with like, you can take like eight month old babies and show them like patterns of toys coming out of a box or whatever. And if it's super predictable, it's always the same toy. They're like, oh, boring. And you can track their gaze to see if they're interested in. And if it's super unpredictable, it's like always something different. They find that boring. But if there's some sort of regularity, it's not predictable, but it's not crazy. And you sort of feel like you could figure out the pattern. 语法解析

21:18

That's what we tend to find interesting. That's what this avant-garde is about. It's like an upside-down you. You want to be in that sweet spot where it's like, “I don't know what's going to happen next.” But it's not just gibberish. This applies to music, for example. They've done analyses. It's like, if music is super predictable, this is why after the age of 10, we don't find Mary Had a Little Lamb that interesting. If it's super predictable, we don't find it all that compelling. But if it's just random tones, 语法解析

21:43

We don't find that compelling either. There's a sweet spot, but that sweet spot depends on our experience too. So if you spend a lot of time listening to music or playing music or studying music, you start to prefer more and more complex and less predictable music because you're getting better at predicting what comes next. 语法解析

21:57

This episode is brought to you by Whoop. I've worn Whoop for over five years now, since way before they were a partner on the show, and it's the only wearable I've ever stuck with because it is the best. I've actually tracked over 1,600 days of my life with it, according to the app, which is pretty crazy. Whoop is super innocuous. You don't even remember that you've got it on, and yet it tracks everything. 语法解析

22:18

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23:04

slash modern wisdom. I remember learning about a study that was done showing the faces of different sheep, newborn babies. Have you seen this one? No, I'm like, where is this going? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you were to show me, are you 10, 15 sheep? Unless they were very obviously different, we'd probably go, yeah, that could have been the same one over and over again. It seems that infants have the ability to 语法解析

23:33

discern between different animals and that this is a cognitive process that kind of drops away like our ability to move our ears i think that all humans have the ability to move their ears a little bit but again the muscles sort of atrophy a little bit yeah no not with your fingers you can move them manually yourself i'm trying to do it right now i just feel like i feel i look like an idiot yeah it's not working um 语法解析

23:54

And after you get to a certain age, I don't know what the threshold is. Maybe it's sort of eight months, maybe it's a year and a half, something like that. This ability to be able to discern between different sheep or different cows or something, it sort of falls away. And it kind of makes me think about this too, that you have… 语法解析

24:12

If we can't discern between different sheep, even if they are different, the level of uncertainty doesn't cross a threshold. Even though there is uncertainty there, it's that we're not able to detect it and that it needs to be above a particular threshold for us to go, huh, yeah, different sheep. That'd be interesting. And it's really interesting that this is something that kids can tune into because I think one of the themes in the research that I was looking at is 语法解析

24:38

like kids are really good explorers. And part of that is that they're able to follow their own instinct. I mean, they don't, they have no other guidance. They don't know what they're supposed to be interested in. So they look at what interests them. And, and so they are very sensitive. Kids seem to be very sensitive to this intermediate level of uncertainty. Um, as I said, you know, eight months old or whatever, they're able to 语法解析

25:05

tune into what is a fairly subtle difference in the, in the sort of predictability of patterns. And as we get older, a lot of things happen. So I don't know whether it's like we lose that ability or we just get taught like, no, this is what you need to be doing between the hours of 10 and 12 on Tuesdays or whatever. And so we're, we're, we're following for reasons that are sometimes good. We're, we're, we're following, um, 语法解析

25:31

patterns that are laid out for us by society, and we maybe get less good at understanding what's interesting to us intrinsically. And the problem is that what's interesting to us intrinsically is the best signal we have of that intermediate level of uncertainty, of this is where we can learn about the world. But so, you know, when I… 语法解析

25:53

I have this general feeling that we should, quote unquote, try to explore more like children. It's hard to articulate what that means, but part of it, I think, is trying to tap back into that innate sensation of understanding what you find interesting or curious or inexplicable, like 语法解析

26:12

Huh. Why did that happen? I'd like to know. I'd like to follow that up as opposed to just following someone else's curriculum or following what the algorithm is suggesting to you might be interesting. Well, reducing down predictability is going to help, but… 语法解析

26:27

a lot of people get locked into their routines. I often think about this sort of tension between the enjoyment of serendipity and uncertainty and the, you know, reduction in the speed of the passage of time when things are novel and intense. And then also on the other side, the thing that everybody's trying to do, which is be optimal. And by optimal, what you mean is refine down all of the degrees of freedom to a point where you know the best path through a regularly- 语法解析

26:54

traverse terrain. Like this is a situation that I come up against typically. It's morning. It's going to work. What's the best route to go to work? I actually don't want to go past that set of traffic lights because if I hit it wrong and I try to go right, it takes ages. Google Maps doesn't even account for that. So I'm going to take this route and I'm going to work around it. So you end up with all of the degrees of freedom just like collapsing in on a very small number of very effective, very efficient, but largely unnovel and unstimulating and uncertain or very certain traffic 语法解析

27:23

pathways through life. And yeah, I guess that's the sort of perennial curse of the optimizer that you end up with a uninspiring but quite efficient existence. I think this is one of the great tensions of modern life that we're… I mean, it's one of the processes of adulthood and growing older is that we become more and more efficient. We know what we like, we know what we don't like, we know what works, we know what 语法解析

27:52

doesn't work. And so we converge on this ever narrow, narrowing set of options. And there's, you know, there's a big movement or a big literature on habits and how to form better habits. And there's a lot of good reasons for that. I'm a big habit guy myself, but the fact is habits are the antithesis of exploration. And, you know, you mentioned commuting and that's a great example. There was a two day strike on the London underground and, 语法解析

28:20

I think it was 2014, and it was an optional strike. So workers could show up or not show up, which meant that some stations were open and some weren't, depending on how many people showed up at a given station. So for two days, people had to kind of, they could still take the tube, but they had to adapt and say, oh, my station isn't open or my destination station isn't open. I have to find a different route or get off at a different place. 语法解析

28:43

So this is taking, as you said, the epitome of an optimized habit. You follow this commuting pattern twice a day, every day of your working life. You know how to get to work. But what they found in a big analysis, they analyzed the Oyster card data, and they found that of the most hyper-regular commuters, the people who always took the same route every workday, 语法解析

29:05

after the two-day strike, about 5% of them adopted a completely different commuting pattern. And basically they'd realized, oh, actually if I get off one stop earlier, I can do it. It's a five-minute walk instead of a 10-minute bus ride. There's a coffee shop that I like. Yeah, or it's a beautiful, I could take the boat along the canal and it's lovely. And so the point is that even repetition, repetition doesn't guarantee that you find 语法解析

29:35

the best, the optimal solution. And that even doesn't account for the fact that, hey, maybe it's nice to just change up your routine sometimes. But it's like, even if you're an optimizer, even if you're like, I want the best, habit doesn't always get you there. Sometimes you don't want to explore every morning. You don't want to wake up for work and say, all right, I'm going to invent a new way of tying my shoes. And then I'm going to decide which parts of my body to cover with clothing. And then I'm going to try and figure out a completely different way to get to work because you're going to be late for work every morning. 语法解析

30:04

But having some exploration, not getting totally calcified into your routines, I think, again, going back to this theme, it's both fun and it can lead to better outcomes. What about effort? Talk to me about the effort paradox. Yeah, so this is the downside of exploring. This might seem like the downside of exploring, is that it is hard. Let's say you decide that you want to find a new way to work. 语法解析

30:30

The most likely scenario is that you're going to get lost or you're going to take longer. It's going to suck. That's, I mean, there's a reason you're taking the route you have been taking. So, and that's true, I think, in general of everything. 语法解析

30:41

Any exploratory choice, going back to what we said before, it's by definition, the outcome is uncertain. And in most cases, on average, it's actually going to be worse than what you already know. So like ordering in a restaurant, if you know what dish you like in that such and such a restaurant, and then you decide, maybe I should try the meatloaf or whatever, chances are it's going to be worse than what you already know you like. 语法解析

31:04

And so that seems like exploring sucks. It just brings you negative outcomes. Now, in the long term, by exploring, you can discover things that work out to be better. But there's another angle, which is that actually doing things that are challenging, that involve some struggle, getting lost now and then, can actually be extremely satisfying. And so… 语法解析

31:25

There's this idea of the effort paradox in psychology, which is that sometimes the harder we have to work at something, the more we like it. And whether that's running a marathon or whatever, people don't run a marathon because it's easy. They run it because it's hard. Sometimes you may start, I want to get in shape, so I'm going to start running. But people who run more than one marathon, they're actually attracted to the difficulty of it. And you can extend that to buying furniture at Ikea. 语法解析

31:53

you can probably get a similar piece of furniture pre-assembled. But people have done studies of what's called the IKEA effect, that if you've had to struggle with those pictographic instructions and figure out how that Allen key works and all that stuff, you put the coffee table together, you end up valuing that coffee table more highly than if you'd got the exact same coffee table just delivered to your door pre-assembled. So there's something in us that values effort. What that is, is… 语法解析

32:21

It's hard to pin down, but there are a few studies that have been emerging in the last couple of years suggesting that putting in effort is a source of meaning. People can't define the meaning of life, but they can tell you when something feels meaningful. And doing hard things tends to feel meaningful. I wonder whether that plays into relationships sometimes, the classic, I only want them if they don't want me dynamic. Yeah. 语法解析

32:43

Oh, man, that's an interesting proposition or the stormy relationships where it seems like you're having to work at it at all times. I mean, I think there's probably a little bit there that relationships that are too easy tend to get 语法解析

32:56

you know, I don't want to tar and paper people's, or, you know, be negative about relationships, but if it's just totally without strife, without any tension, then it maybe feels a little boring. And you feel like it needs to never- Well, it didn't even need to be tension or strife, right? Effort. You know, if it's just always there. And I mean, look, peace is the most important thing in my life. So for me, the more peaceful, the better. But even within that, you don't want something to be, again, so predictable, no uncertainty, no intrigue. 语法解析

33:26

Um, so with this uncertainty and effort, um, sort of dynamic that's going on, how do you advise people to better embrace struggle? Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing to, to, to recognize is to just to recognize that just because something is hard, doesn't mean it should be shied away from it. In fact, some, you know, it's like, 语法解析

33:52

With a hat tip to Michael Easter, whose email list is called 2%, because that's the percent of people who take the stairs when there's both the stairs and an escalator available. It's like, you look at the stairs and you look at the escalator, it seems obvious that going up the escalator is going to be a more pleasant and better experience. But when you take the stairs, I… 语法解析

34:18

I don't think it's just me. It's like, it's, it's, it's much more satisfying to have put in a little effort and recognizing that putting an effort is going to lead you to feel good is, uh, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't make the effort go away, but it helps you reframe it as something that's positive, not negative. This is an opportunity for me to put an effort, which is going to make me feel good as opposed to I'm obliged to take on something hard. Can that, tying that back to your first book, uh, 语法解析

34:48

Can that help us with resilience, endurance, suffering, hard times? I mean, I think it's almost a precondition that if you're trying to push yourself, if you're trying to handle difficult times, if you view every negative feeling as a sort of disaster or as something that is as a negative, then you're 语法解析

35:11

And it's just a miserable experience and you're going to be inclined to quit earlier. And if you can reframe that and just, and it's in the same way that one of the things I talked about in Endure is the power of your inner monologue, right? Like if you're running a marathon and you're telling yourself, this is so hard, there's no way I can do this. I better, I'm going to drop out. 语法解析

35:31

becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because your ability to continue depends in part on what your brain believes about your ability to continue. And if you can turn that around to, I can do this, I've trained for this, I know it's hard, it's supposed to be hard, everybody else around me is feeling it the same way, this is part of the experience, then that becomes a performance-enhancing frame of mind. So I think 语法解析

35:59

And recognizing that effort can be, it doesn't mean that it doesn't make it easy. It doesn't change how hard it is, but recognizing that it's not a symbol, a signal that you're doing something wrong and that it actually can be something good. I think that that helps you endure it for longer. You're less likely to quit on things. Have you thought about how people can avoid seeing all of life instrumentally? If everything is 语法解析

36:25

is done in service of what you get out of it in the future, you actually end up spending all of your days, delayed gratification in the extreme results in no gratification. It's like winning the marshmallow test over and over again every single day, but never cashing it out. Yeah. You've touched on one of the big dilemmas and something that I really struggled with and that 语法解析

36:49

evolved as I was writing this book in my mind. When I started thinking about exploring, I thought I'm going to write a book and the subtitle is going to be something along the lines of, you know, the case for why we should explore more or the case for more exploring. But as I got into it, I, I, I started to have the thoughts that you've just expressed of like, Oh wait, like, it's like, think of listening to music. For example, it's like most people tend to, uh, 语法解析

37:17

You find the music you love when you're young, when you're in your teens and 20s. And then most people tend to listen to less and less new music as time goes on. And it's not totally irrational because you've spent some time exploring now, you know what you like. But you might say, that's a shame. We should explore more. I'm not going to fall victim to this narrowing of my taste. I'm going to keep exploring new music. And I think that's great. But if you were to take that to an extreme and say, 语法解析

37:41

In fact, I'm never going to listen to the same song twice because exploring is what it's about. Then it's that we can see on, that's absurd on, on the face of it. Right. But it's, that's, that's the, the, the perspective of like, always keep exploring, always keep looking for the future and never stop. And like, I really love this song. I'm going to listen to it 17 times in a row on repeat. Uh, even if my, my wife kills me. Uh, so you do have to stop and enjoy it. I think that's a really, so in a, in a sense, 语法解析

38:11

There's this idea in decision science called the explore-exploit dilemma. And it is a dilemma. It's not like explore-exploit, you should always explore. Whenever you come to a fork in the road, take the road less traveled. You've got to think about 语法解析

38:26

Maybe now's the time to exploit, to take the music that I just discovered and sit down and listen to it or to figure out what I, you know, or maybe it's not. Maybe this is a good time to explore, but it's not. It's a lot less obvious than I thought it was for precisely the reasons you said that, yeah, if you never stop and enjoy what you got… 语法解析

38:48

then I'm not sure that the exploring is super satisfying. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Sleep isn't just about how long you rest, but how well your body stays in its optimal temperature range throughout the night. And this is where Eight Sleep comes in. Just add their brand new Pod 4 Ultra to your mattress like a fitted sheet, and it automatically cools down or warms up each side of your bed up to 20 degrees. 语法解析

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39:34

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39:56

Yeah. So I went down a big rabbit hole on this. I was like, I come from a physics background. I'm a quantitative guy. I want the formula that will tell me when to explore or exploit. And I guess I apologize for chapter five in my book, which kind of tries to follow that rabbit hole because there is a ton of attempts to explore. 语法解析

40:19

produce a formula. And it turns out the math is, in any real world context, the math is ridiculous and becomes very hard to follow. But there are some big principles that I think that come out of the math, but that also are practical in a day-to-day scenario. So 语法解析

40:38

One concept is the idea of an uncertainty bonus. We kind of do this intuitively, but I think it helps to think of it in terms of it consciously. When you're considering a decision, you don't automatically opt for the one you know less about or the unexplored road, but the less you know about an option… 语法解析

40:58

You give a bonus that's proportional to how little you know about it. So you say, all else being equal, I'm going to take the one that I know less about. So that kind of helps to make sure you're not getting too calcified into that sort of set of habits that you're talking about. It's not the only factor you consider, but it's like, I'm going to add a bonus if it's going to teach me something new or take me down a fresh path. And then the one other 语法解析

41:28

kind of heuristic that I think is useful. This is a sort of approximate way of solving this explore-exploit dilemma. It's something called the upper confidence bound algorithm, and that's the math version. And the way they translate that into regular language is optimism in the face of uncertainty, that you should be optimistic about the choices you make. And what that means in practice is that if you're choosing between options, you should take the 语法解析

41:58

scenario with the best case or the best realistic upside or the best realistic, best case scenario. So realistic is in there because it's like, I'm not saying buy a lottery ticket because it's best case scenario is you're a millionaire because that's unlikely to happen. But for scenarios that are realistic, it pays to be optimistic. So an example, I guess would be 语法解析

42:25

you're considering different job possibilities. One has a higher starting salary and is stable, and so that's a real positive. The other, maybe less money, a little less stable, but it has a pathway towards your dream job. It has a pathway to what you actually really want to be doing in the long term. All else being equal, it's probably worth taking a shot on that because that's the optimism in the face of uncertainty that I don't know how things are going to turn out, 语法解析

42:52

But that's the, that's the being optimistic. If things do turn out, that's the one that'll make me happiest. And what the math shows is if you, individual decisions, all bets are off. It might turn out well, it might turn out poorly. But in the longterm, if you're optimistic in the face of uncertainty, this will minimize your regret. This will minimize you looking back and saying, 语法解析

43:12

I wish I had done that. I think that makes intuitive sense as well as mathematical sense. You're more likely to look back and say, “I wish I had asked that person to dance,” than, “I really regret asking that person to dance and they said no.” Yeah, dig into regret minimization a bit more for me. Yeah, I wasn't sure how mathematical to get. Regret in the mathematical sense is the difference between 语法解析

43:39

what outcome you got and the best you could have gotten if you'd made magically made all the right choices. Nobody has a crystal ball, so nobody can make all the right choices all the time. So, but regret is like often, you know, you can, you can think of these sort of decision trees as gambling games in reality. You know, we may be talking about careers or dating decisions, but it's like, I bet $5 on this. I bet $10 in that, which, which, you know, which machine should I bet on? 语法解析

44:05

And maybe the best you could have done in a series of 10 bets is getting $100. And if you made a series of bets and ended up with $70, your regret is $30. So that's the mathematical way of thinking about it. And because nobody is perfect, nobody has clairvoyance, regret always increases, which is kind of a depressing thing to say, but… 语法解析

44:27

There's no way of going through life without accumulating some regrets of thinking, I kind of wish I had asked her to dance, not the other one. We accumulate regret. But so the goal is not to eliminate regret because that's impossible, but to minimize regret. And the math shows that this kind of optimism in the face of uncertainty is 语法解析

44:47

is one way of guaranteeing that over the long term, your regret will increase as slowly as is realistically possible unless you find the magic genie with the three wishes. Yes. Yeah, very. Which I'm looking for. Yeah, you know, like. That would be nice. So, you know, it's sort of, I guess, talked about 语法解析

45:08

environmental, lifestyle, sort of external exploration, what have you come to learn about cognitive exploration, thinking patterns, our seeking of new behaviors, our seeking of new information, algorithms, modern world, stuff like that? Yeah. So when I initially started on this topic, I was like, I'm interested in exploring a 语法解析

45:31

I think it's more than just about the way I take my vacations or whatever. I think it's also about ideas, but it's an analogy. It's a metaphor. And what I was really surprised to discover is that… Actually, no. In your brains, it's like the same thing. When you're wandering through a town that you've never been to before, you are mapping it in your hippocampus. So you're forming cognitive maps. Literally, there are… 语法解析

45:57

individual neurons that will light up when you go to a specific point on that map. And there are other neurons that will keep track of what direction you're facing and how close you are to the borders of that town. You're building maps in your brain. There's a famous study about London cab drivers that their hippocampuses are enlarged. That's why, because they are mapping a very complicated city. So their hippocampuses actually have to get physically bigger. So it turns out that the hippocampus isn't just a place for mapping 语法解析

46:24

landscapes, it's a place for mapping ideas too. And we keep track of ideas. And so ideas that are close to each other or far away from each other, this is physically manifested in the brain. And so one example is we keep track of our social networks in the hippocampus. And so you can think of like 语法解析

46:44

We know people. We have some sense of hierarchy. Are they more powerful than us or less powerful than us? And how well do we know them? Are they close to us? And so that's a two-dimensional map. And people literally map their social networks in their hippocampus in this two-dimensional way. So all of this is to say that when we talk about different ways of exploring and exploiting 语法解析

47:09

So these really, this is intimately tied to creativity and coming up with new ideas, expanding our cognitive maps of ideas. And so there's a bunch of, there are a bunch of interesting findings that fall out of that about how we should mix exploring and exploiting to come up with better ideas. Yeah. 语法解析

47:31

In this context, is exploration and curiosity the same thing, similar thing, related? I think they're very closely related. Curiosity is a name for the drive that compels us to explore, I would say. I'm not a dictionary guy, but that's how I would classify them. I think curiosity, yeah, a lot of the same 语法解析

47:53

discussion applies and exploration is what you actually end up doing once because of curiosity. Do I see you talk about humans becoming smarter but less creative? 语法解析

48:04

Yeah, so there's a well-known effect called the Flynn effect, and it's been like a century now. IQ scores keep going up gradually, and so they have to keep rebalancing the scores every few years. There's a lot of debate about why this is. Probably just that the modern world requires a lot more abstract thinking than it did to be a hunter-gatherer a long time ago, or even a farmer-gatherer. 语法解析

48:33

That's one effect. What's less well-known is that there are similar tests that assess creativity. There's a set of tests called the Torrance tests for creative thinking. And they also have to renormalize those scores periodically. But that's because the scores keep dropping. Kids are getting less creative. And so between about 1990 and 2008, there was a significant drop. 语法解析

48:55

And after two, from 2008 to 2017, which was the next re-normalization, there was a much steeper drop. And it's, you know, it's tempting to say, Oh, like what happened between 2008 and 2017? Let's see, when did I get my first smartphone? And when did social media, you know, like all of that is speculative, but it's the, the, the fact is there's evidence that creative thinking is 语法解析

49:24

And the ability to just come up with totally new ideas is maybe going down. And I should say that it's not just these tests of kids. There's been big analyses of patents and of scientific papers, finding that the number of breakthroughs or disruptive papers that really take a field in a different direction seems to be dropping. 语法解析

49:49

I need to dig into some of your other stuff just for a moment. The cognitive thing sort of got me thinking. Talk to me about recent data. You must have looked at this. Exercise, activity, physical activity, and mental health. Where are we at with that current world? Yeah, actually, it's… 语法解析

50:10

Good timing. I wrote about that recently because there was a big skeptical study. People like me, I'm a health and fitness journalist, so I'm always like, the best thing you can do for your mental health is exercise. It'll cure your depression. It'll grow your hair back. It'll do all these great things. I try not to be a booster, but it's hard not to. I guess I'm a strong believer in the power of exercise. There was a big review recently that said, hang on, how good is the evidence really that 语法解析

50:38

exercise promotes mental health. And the overall conclusion is the exercise is pretty good, but it's really hard to tease out what… So for example, there's a lot of studies that find that exercise can be as powerful as… For depression, can be as powerful as cognitive behavioral therapy or of antidepressants. 语法解析

51:01

It depends on the population a little bit, but exercise really has powerful effects. The question is, is it because there's more blood pumping to your brain or there's more BDNF or other brain chemicals being produced that promote the formation of good connections between your neurons? Or is it because if you get in an exercise habit, you have a feeling of self-efficacy? You feel like, hey, I set this goal for myself and I'm doing it. I'm really… 语法解析

51:28

doing something good for myself. And actually I'm meeting my friends there three times a week and I'm having some social interaction. And so there's a lot of things that go along with taking up exercise. And so it's not entirely clear, um, which of these are the, are the key ones, what, and what's doing what. So I think it's, it's a very, it's very strong evidence that, uh, 语法解析

51:51

exercise both maintains and promotes and can actually sort of cure, quote unquote, not cure, but ameliorate mental health. But we don't know exactly why or whether you could get the same thing out of joining a bridge club or something like that. Yeah. How much of it is the pro-social, getting yourself out of the house structure of your day? How much of this is, I guess, just the 语法解析

52:13

Straight up selection bias for who it is, what's the cohort of people, who are the sort of people that are prepared to do that. Exactly. In other news, you might have heard me say that hold luggage is a psyop meant to keep you poor and late. And while that's true, it turns out that when a brand puts hundreds of hours into 语法解析

52:29

into design and organization and durability, suddenly checking a bag doesn't feel quite so much like a trap. It actually feels like an upgrade, which is what Nomadic's done with their new method check-in luggage. It's been designed from the wheels up to be lighter, stronger, and hold more. It's got best-in-class materials, 360-degree silent glide wheels, patent-pending micro-welding technology, and integrated TSA locks. Basically, you can pack anything. 语法解析

52:54

For between one and two weeks of clothes, it's got a full perimeter expansion for even more space, and it's lighter, so no more panic attacks every time that you wear your bag. And their new carry-on can hold up to 20% more than other carry-ons, which means you can fit nearly a week's worth of clothing without checking a bag. And they'll last you a lifetime with a lifetime guarantee, plus there's a 30-day money-back guarantee, so you can buy your new luggage, try it out for a month if you don't like it, 语法解析

53:18

They'll give you your money back right now. You get a 20% discount. See everything I use and recommend by going to the link in the description below or heading to nomadic.com slash modern wisdom. That's nomadic.com slash modern wisdom. And what about the link between exercise and brain health? Is that something else that's been sort of reassessed? I think the evidence is pretty strong that 语法解析

53:45

exercise either increases or slows the decline in the size of some brain regions. This is another topic I looked at recently where you look at it and you can find this, I can find studies that make me feel really good. It's like exercise is going to make your brain super healthy for, you know, no matter how old you get. But you can also find studies that don't find a strong effect or that 语法解析

54:11

say, oh, it seems to maintain the size of this region of the brain, but not that one. And those sorts of findings always give you pause because then it's like, there's no reason it should be selectively. So I, excuse me, if I were summing up my impression of the evidence is that exercise has actual positive structural effects on the brain, which will in turn help ward off cognitive decline, delay or slow, you know, 语法解析

54:41

maybe even prevent depending on how long you can delay it or at the very least slow down cognitive decline. So I think that's, you know, when I'm getting out of bed on a cold winter morning, that's, that's one of the most powerful motivators for me. I'd be, you know, the truth is the evidence is not like bulletproof at this point, but it's, I find it, 语法解析

55:02

I find it convincing enough to get me out of bed, put it that way. If you were to lay at the feet of a particular style of exercise, what you think gives the most benefits to brain health, what would it be? Yeah, I'm hopelessly biased here. Like, look, I was a former columnist for Runner's World magazine, and I've been a runner since I was 15. I think aerobic exercise, that's it. Doing my best to put aside my biases, I think aerobic exercise… 语法解析

55:30

probably packs the biggest punch for brain health for for the we're talking for physical brain health and not necessarily for the mental health aspects where i don't think it's clear which is better um 语法解析

55:45

I certainly try and do both, like both resistance exercise and aerobic exercise. And I also like playing like games that involve team orientation, which I think is also like, like another aspect of brain health is like, are you using your brain during exercise? And there's a little bit of, 语法解析

56:03

evidence that doing things like coordination games, like juggling or playing football or basketball, that that's even better for your brain because you're using your neurons at the same time that all these growth-promoting things are happening. So 语法解析

56:19

I would go with running, but with such a small margin that the bigger factor I would say is whatever exercise you enjoy and are willing to do, you're likely going to get a benefit. So it's not like other forms of exercise don't have the benefits. What's the truth on zone two at the moment? There was a period everyone was super into zone two. That was the hot new girl in school. Now it's VO2 max training and zone two is out the window. 语法解析

56:44

I imagine that this is like a Kardashian getting divorced in your world. There will be more fads and they will be interesting. Actually, Zone 2 and VO2 Max are actually… If you were using modern buzzwords to describe the training of champion endurance athletes, you would say, eh, about 80% Zone 2 and 20% VO2 Max. That's kind of what they do. I would say… In terms of the Zone 2 stuff, I think it's true that… 语法解析

57:14

It's a very effective way of both getting fit for performance and also for metabolic health, maybe more importantly. My main quibble with it would be, I think it's been sometimes prescribed in an overly specific way that it's not like zone two is magic and zone 2.1 is nothing and zone 1.9 is you might as well not get out of bed. In fact, there's a new paper that just came out from a panel of experts in the last week or two that says, 语法解析

57:43

among other things makes this point that they're saying that their consensus is like zone 2.5 zone 3.5 it's a continuum and so you don't need to stress about it actually i wrote about zone 2 for the new york times i don't know last month maybe i'm trying to make this point that it's like yeah it's good but don't don't you know you don't have to like be pricking your fingers to test lactate every two minutes to make sure you don't accidentally get out of zone 2 now i was thinking 语法解析

58:08

I was a little worried that I'd created a straw man. I was like, do people really believe that you have to be this precise? And I got an email afterwards from someone who was saying, thank God you wrote this. This morning I was out for my run and I was sprinting down a hill and 语法解析

58:22

because I wanted to keep my heart rate high enough to stay at the magical zone two. And I tripped and I fell. And as I was walking home bleeding, my watch kept beeping at me, telling me that I was outside of zone two. And I was thinking to myself, there has to be a better way. And I was like, okay, it wasn't this drawn in. There are people who have taken this very literally that you have to be exactly at the magical zone two. And I don't think that's correct. But the idea of, I think this is like a great misunderstanding is that it's 语法解析

58:48

endurance athletes train hard all the time. And in fact, it's like 80% of the time out there, conversational pace, having a, having a laugh and, and maybe not enjoy enjoying it in the way that the effort paradox allows us to enjoy it, which is that we're doing a challenge. We're doing something somewhat difficult, but not killing ourselves. Then 20% of the time you go out and you try and find God by pushing yourself really hard, but, but not all the time. Zone two is still king. 语法解析

59:15

Zone 2, yeah, but it's the largest component, or somewhere near it, is the largest component of the trading. The territory of Zone 2. The territory in and around the blast radius of Zone 2. That's right. If you can see it with your binoculars, you're doing okay. Okay, cool. Getting back to exploration, did you make any changes to your life after looking at this book? How's this netted out practically? So there's… 语法解析

59:42

There's the vague big picture things, but I'll give you a concrete practical thing, which is that I do my best not to turn on the turn-by-turn directions in my car when I'm going out or even on my phone when I'm going for a walk. 语法解析

59:56

This is for a couple of reasons. One is that it's like, okay, I'd like to be a little more present in my environment and be looking out the window instead of looking at my screen. But actually, in the book, I spoke to some neuroscientists who are actually concerned about this, who are actually concerned that just as London cab drivers have enlarged hippocampus because they've learned so much about their environment, people who 语法解析

01:00:22

use what's known as stimulus response navigation, that is, who just follow like turn left here, turn right there, turn left. And we can do that with or without GPS. Their hippocampus is not using their hippocampus. They're using a different part of the brain called the CAUT8 nucleus. And 语法解析

01:00:39

That actually translates into difference. Your hippocampus gets smaller and your cardiac nucleus gets bigger. Over life, when we're kids, we're all hippocampus. We don't know our way around the world, so we're cognitive mapping everywhere we go, trying to figure out where we are. As we get older, we learn to use this stimulus response approach because it's faster, it's more efficient, it's less prone to errors. 语法解析

01:01:00

But the problem is, as the world gets more and more optimized, as I can get into my car and just press a button and I never even have to know my own neighborhood, then we're not using our hippocampuses as much. And that leads to them being smaller. And there is research. And it's a chain of logic that isn't, you know, nobody has shown that turning on your GPS is going to make you get dementia. But there is a chain of logic that 语法解析

01:01:25

People who rely most on stimulus response navigation have smaller hippocampus. People who have smaller hippocampuses, that is a known risk factor of conditions like Alzheimer's, PTSD, depression. So I don't want to oversell that, but I would say even with caveats, my takeaway has been 语法解析

01:01:48

I look at, I figure out where I'm going. I look at the directions I try and figure out, understand where I'm going. And then I turn it off until I, until I need it. So I don't use the turn, but turn directions. And that means I get lost sometimes. And that means I have my kids chirping me from the backseat saying like, mommy uses ways. Mommy wouldn't have missed that turn. Why don't you use ways? And I'm like, 语法解析

01:02:11

Kids, we're going to be 90 seconds later than we would have, like simmer down. Think about my hippocampus, okay? Yeah, exactly. Won't somebody think of the hippocampi? Yeah. That's a concrete thing. What would you say to people who… 语法解析

01:02:27

like the thesis that you're putting forward, but still are met with a degree of discomfort when it comes to the prospect of exploring novelty, uncertainty. No, fuck you, Alex. I quite like my certainty. Where would you go? Existentially, philosophically, mantra-wise, what can people use to rely on to help them feel more comfortable in their new world of exploration? Well, 语法解析

01:02:53

If this was at a cocktail party, I would say, that's great. You're fine. Like, I'm not going to try. I'm not, you don't need to, you do you. But if, if, if they were open to gentle nudging, the question I would ask them, I think is, are you doing anything in your life where you don't already know the outcome? Is there anything you do this today or this week or this month or this year that isn't the same as what you were doing a year ago or five years ago? Uh, it, 语法解析

01:03:26

Because if not, then when you think about it that way, you might think, huh, there was a time in my life when every day I went to school or whatever and learned something new or did something different or learned a skill or tried a game. And that actually can be really rewarding. So I would say, you don't have to go to the South Pole to be exploring. But if there's not some area of your life where you're 语法解析

01:03:56

pushing into territory where you don't know how it's going to turn out, whether it's exploring new music or taking up a new hobby or wandering through your neighborhood by a different route than you normally do. These are all steps on a very broad scale. And you can be anywhere on that scale. Your want curve is different from everybody else's want curve, and it will change throughout life. 语法解析

01:04:22

But if you're way on that left side of the want curve where everything is predictable, everything is the same, you've optimized everything to the point of total predictability, consider that you might enjoy a surprise now and then. Yeah, I have been trying over the last couple of months to live the philosophy that I don't necessarily know what's best for me all the time. 语法解析

01:04:50

I typically do. Yeah. But there's a degree of, do you say, self-knowledge, self-management, lifestyle design narcissism. It doesn't affect anybody else. But, you know, it's just, no, no, no, I know what's best. I know what I want to order from Flower Child. I don't want to try that new thing. I know the best route to get to Gold's Gym at 3 p.m. on a Tuesday. And, yeah, I'm… 语法解析

01:05:17

As somebody that quite likes control, somebody that likes to reduce down uncertainty, I would say I have maybe like probably quite a lot of people. I love adventure. I have a lot of curiosity inside of me. But I also like control. I don't like to feel like stuff's out of control. I like order. I like structure. I like having a routine. And these two things, you know, the tension exists between the ears. Yeah. 语法解析

01:05:44

Yeah, there's a definite yin and yang. And I'm like you, I'm actually, I would describe myself as like a recreational optimizer. It's like, no, seriously, I know how we should load the dishwasher. Like, if you put that plate there, then we're not going to get as much water on that. And there will be like, I've thought this through, I've gamed it out. I've performed the experiments. So don't load the dishwasher this other way. And yeah. 语法解析

01:06:08

There's a fun in the optimization, but it is in tension with my simultaneous desire to have adventure. So I think of this in the context of going on vacations. My wife and I, or my family and I, we do some fun backpacking. I do some canoeing. The goal is to get out and to have an adventure. And yet… 语法解析

01:06:30

The ink, the instinct is also let's Google and see if we can find trip blogs from anybody else who's done this trip. We'll find pictures of every, everything we're going to see there. We'll know exactly what to expect. We'll know whether we need to bring crampons. We'll know whether we need this or that, and we'll be fully prepared for this. And then you go on the trip and it's like, all right, it's exactly what I expected. So hang on. Why did I come here? If I already did all that research. So these, these, these impulses are constantly at war and, and, and always will be, I think, but, 语法解析

01:06:58

And sometimes you just need to give a push. And so it was interesting last summer, my family, we did a hiking trip in the Pyrenees and my wife and I were both super busy leading up to it. And we got there and we were like, 语法解析

01:07:14

holy crap, we actually didn't do our usual obsessive level of research on this hiking route. It was awesome. So each day we were like, well, let's figure out what's coming next because we don't know. We didn't research it. And then that's a lesson that I'm trying to keep in mind that it's like, yeah, control and optimization are great, but sometimes it's nice to just like 语法解析

01:07:36

Who the hell knows? Let's see what happens. Alex Hutchinson, ladies and gentlemen. Alex, dude, you're awesome. Whatever, seven, seven and a half years parentheses on the show. And yeah, I mean… 语法解析

01:07:49

The stuff that you write, what is it you write for Runners Wall? I'm now at Outside Magazine. So I write about once a week for Outside Magazine on new research in fitness, endurance, that kind of stuff. Yeah, everyone needs to follow you on Twitter at Sweat Science. If you like evidence-based exercise stuff, you're awesome. And new book, why should people go and get it? 语法解析

01:08:09

Well, they should explore the topic of exploring. I hope it'll, you know, there's no magic formula, but I hope it'll encourage people to find spaces in their life to be surprised. Sick. Alex, I appreciate you. Thanks so much, Chris. 语法解析

01:08:25

I get asked all the time for book suggestions. People want to get into reading fiction or nonfiction or real life stories. And that's why I made a list of 100 of the most interesting and impactful books that I've ever read. These are the most life-changing reads that I've ever found. And there's descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them. And it's completely free. And you can get it right now by going to chriswillx.com slash books. That's chriswillx.com slash books. 语法解析

Edit:2025.05.06

00:00 从第46集到第916集，大概是这样。在你准备好再次面对我之前，你需要再接触900个人。这非常重要。那是我与你进行直接对话时所经历的那种耗尽精力的程度。太棒了。我之前说过，在我们开始之前，观察你能够合作的人的弧线以及这种关系如何随着时间的推移而发展，真的很酷。是的，我的意思是……

00:27 完全同意你的看法。在采访前的日子里，我一直在想，哇，你知道的，2018年对我们俩来说都非常不同。而且

00:37 2018年我和你的那次谈话是如此令人愉快的惊喜。我很高兴看到其他人也认为你的面试能力和我一样好。是的，我们拭目以待，看看我能否让你……没有压力，没有压力。我本来想说，所以今天这种愉快的不确定性比比皆是。我们将看看我能取得什么成就。你对探险家感兴趣。为什么？探险家有什么有趣的？

01:03 是的。我的意思是，探险家有什么不有趣的呢？那么这本书是从哪里开始的呢？我是说，从我五岁起，我就喜欢假装自己是森林里的探险家，发现各种东西。但实际上，我认为这本书真正开始的时间是在我最后一本书出版后我们谈话的时候。我在2018年写了一本关于耐力的书，这并不是为了无端地推销那本书，但书确实卖得不错。它是关于

01:33 十年了，我们假设，一直专注于耐力科学，不断缩小专业领域。它做得相当好，以至于我心想，嘿，太酷了，我可以把我的一生都投入到耐力科学中。我可以就这样滑行下去，你知道的，我应该开始着手研发《耐力2》，就是耐力科学的复仇。而且有很多理由说明那将是一个非常明智的选择。

01:56 但我无法摆脱这种感觉，它实际上对我来说听起来并不是那么有趣。我开始对我的缺乏兴趣感兴趣。我在想，为什么我会有这种做新事物的冲动？这与我的生活的许多其他方面都有关联。为什么我去度假时，喜欢尽可能地远离人迹罕至的地方？为什么我总是被未知所吸引？所以我决定，实际上，我是想了解那些问题的答案。也许我会研究一下，然后将其作为我的下一本书的主题。

02:22 是的，这是困难的第二张专辑，特别是如果你已经对你最初的作品取得了一些成功。我的编辑对我非常宽慰。他不断告诉我，第二本书是最难的，因为这本已经很艰难了。这本晚了整整一年。就像我说的，我晚了一年来交稿，这对我来说并不常见。我通常都是按时完成任务的高手。

02:44 我真的、真的挣扎了一番，因为首先，是的，有期望，有超越之前工作的压力。而且这个话题是如此之大。所以当我说对探索感兴趣时，你可能会想，哦，你是说克里斯托弗·哥伦布之类的探险家吗？然后我就会说，是的，那又怎样？

03:02 而且，你知道的，当你去餐厅的时候，你是点同样的东西还是尝试一些新的呢？在你的职业道路上，在你的约会生活中，以及所有这些事情上都是如此。所以我突然意识到，我基本上是在写关于世界的事情。所以我可以有，你知道的，我可以有主题，我拉得线索越多，主题就越大。最终，感谢我的编辑，我就像是在说，好的，我想我可以在四月之前给你一些东西。然后他就说，不，我需要它在2月15日之前。我就说，哦，感谢上帝他给了我一个截止日期。

03:29 那么，为什么人类会被探索所吸引呢？是什么在我们内心引起了这种反应？

03:35 嗯，我们可以用两种方式来回答这个问题。一个原因是，我们探索是因为它能带来好事。如果你不仅仅待在同一领域，而是向外拓展，寻找，试图弄清楚地平线那边有什么，你最终会发现更好的事物，你会吃到更好的饭菜，拥有更好的职业，找到更好的居住之地等等。所以一种非常功利主义的探索会带来好事。

04:00 另一种回答方式是，探索感觉很好。就像，去一个新地方发现你之前没有遇到过的事物是令人兴奋的。

04:08 这两者是一起发生的，对吧？探索感觉好的原因是因为在进化层面上，它带来了好事。所以糖是甜的，这让我们寻求卡路里。探索感觉很好，这让我们扩展世界并发现更好的做事方式。这两者有点像，糖虽然甜，但并不意味着我们应该总是追求甜味，也不意味着我们现在就应该总是追求新奇。这，这，

04:34 在社交媒体上滚动浏览触发了这种电路，对新事物的渴望。它可能不教我们了解世界，但最终，探索是好的，因为它教会我们了解世界，而且非常令人满意。我认为这是一种通向意义的途径。

04:51 是的，人类需要探索的适应性原因。我想象，当谈到人们希望有多大的探索性时，也存在很大的差异，因为如果整个部落的人都只想爬到那边的山上，那是不行的。你需要有些人留下来。你可以爬上那座山。我会确保我们不会都死掉。

05:14 完全正确。遗传学称之为频率依赖选择。就像，如果你看人类的身高，我们都已经大致收敛到一个相当相似的范围。对人类来说，有一个好的身高。但如果你看内向和外向或攻击性这类特质，

05:31 实际上拥有多种特质是好事。你需要有些人具备某些特质，其他人具备其他特质。所以探索绝对是那种情况之一，你可以看到这一点，并且在例如狩猎采集者中有一些非常有趣的数据，那些更具探索性的人在狩猎和采集时蓬勃发展。而那些更倾向于待在家里巩固我们所知道的人，在从事农业活动时表现更好。这是否意味着随着世界越来越多的地方被探索，现在的世界由那些不是探险家的人所拥有？我认为一个很好的例子可能是多动症（ADHD），也许我们会讨论这一点，但有一个基因与探索欲望有关，而这也与多动症有关。因此我们可能会说，那个基因在我们还是狩猎采集者、世界尚未被探索、我们试图弄清楚事物如何运作以及我们能去哪里时非常了不起。

如果你是一个九岁的男孩坐在教室里被告知请保持静止接下来的10个小时，那么这个基因就是一个麻烦。所以在现代世界中，作为一个天生的探险家就像是把一个方形的塞子硬塞进一个圆形的洞里。

我仍然认为有很大的发展空间。我得出的一个让我感到欣慰的结论是，世界上实际上还有很大的探索空间。尽管没有新大陆等待我们去发现，但我们探索的方式有很多。所以我认为关键在于找到一种方法来利用你的倾向，无论你是喜欢真正去探险，还是稍微少一些冒险精神。好的，那么我们来聊聊探索的遗传学吧。是的。那么……

07:26 遗传学显然是个复杂的话题，对吧？我想说的是——不在这里，亚历克斯。你在这里是安全的，我们都是朋友。我们都服用了行为遗传学的红色药丸。除了你我，没人会听到这些，对吧？所以这样没问题。完全正确。是的。那么大约5万年前，

07:42 人类开始向全球扩散。所以在非洲、欧洲、亚洲有各种各样的人类及其祖先和各种物种在成百上千年的时间里来来去去、辗转迁徙。但大约5万年前，情况变得严肃起来。突然之间，人类开始向全球每一个宜居之地扩散，确切地说。他们到达了复活节岛。他们到达了南美洲的最南端。他们到达了北极。

08:09 大约在5万年前发生的另一件事是，我们大脑中的一个多巴胺受体发生了随机的基因突变，这个受体被称为DRD4。基本上，对于拥有这种突变的人来说，他们对多巴胺的敏感度提高了，这使得他们在发现新事物或意外之事时获得更大的快感，感受到新奇。

08:35 这非常有趣。让我对这个话题产生兴趣的一个科学发现是，除了说“嘿，发现新事物很不错”之外，还有更多的事情可以说。那就是，如果你观察世界各地的种群，并追踪它们不得不迁移多远——为了到达现在的位置，它们在离开非洲后的几万年中不得不进行迁移。

09:00 一个种群不得不迁移得越远，其拥有探索者版本的DRD4基因的比例就越高，这个基因让人寻求和喜欢新奇事物。所以在南美洲的南端，你有的种群中，有80%的人拥有这种探索者的基因。而在欧洲的部分地区，有地方的人有10%或20%拥有该基因的探索者版本。

09:22 这并不意味着南美的每个人都有探险精神而欧洲人没有，但这表明这种行为以某种方式被我们内在化了，因为我们所有人都有DRD4基因。我们都有相同的奖励回路系统，使我们对新奇事物敏感或产生吸引力。只是有些人的这类基因比其他人多一些。

09:44 所以去年年底我进行了大量的DNA分析，我知道我今天会跟你们交谈。所以我请ChatGPT去阅读我的DNA报告。是的，你有DRD4多巴胺受体D4基因的一个变异体。你的具体结果是CA，代表DRD4 C8887A变异体。如果你有两个该变异体的AA副本，你可能会因为较低的基线多巴胺活动而对刺激剂有更好的反应。既然你有一剂，多巴胺，你就不太可能对刺激物有反应。

10:12 有趣。那么多巴胺超级复杂，对吧？它以许多许多不同的方式影响着我们的生活。但你可以想想新奇感和药物，比如。一种思考多巴胺的方式是，当某件事是好的时，你不会得到一次多巴胺的冲击。当某件事比预期更好时，你会得到一次冲击。对。

10:38 所以这就是为什么它会驱使我们去探索的原因，因为如果你去一个你不知道会发生什么的地方，那是找到超出你预期的东西的好方法。但它也是实际上导致成瘾行为的同类事物。你第一次服用药物时，哇，它比预期要好。你想再试一次。

10:58 你第十次服用时，你知道会发生什么。所以没有更多的预测误差。你不会得到多巴胺的冲击。唯一的方法是增加剂量以获得更多，因为那样你就可以让自己感到惊喜。所以许多寻求风险的行为和许多成瘾行为、赌博行为之间存在联系。所以探索很棒，但这是……

11:22 这种驱动力可以被用于生产性的方式。它也可以引导我们走上一些不那么生产性的道路，比如说。关于多巴胺你所了解的真实情况和胡言乱语是什么？我认为关于多巴胺最大的误解就是，它就像是快乐化学物质，当你感觉好时你就会得到它。事实上，20或30年前就已经知道，实际上……

11:47 当某件事物好的时候，你不会再次感受到多巴胺的冲击。只有当它超出预期时，你才会有这种感觉。所以这跟期望有关。这就意味着对某物的渴望超过拥有它本身。拥有某物的愉悦感，基本上就像内啡肽，也就是所谓的“快乐激素”。渴望某物的愉悦感，多巴胺与之有关联。但是大脑会对不同的信息使用相同的通道。所以每次，我诚实地讲，我都希望能有一个关于多巴胺的定论，就像……

12:15 各位，我要告诉你们多巴胺的作用是什么。这就是答案。这就是事实。这就是神话。经过大量与科学家交谈和阅读论文后，我的印象是即使科学家现在也不能完全确定多巴胺的全部故事。因此，我希望人们能够理解的信息是，多巴胺不仅仅是一种带来愉悦的化学物质，而且多巴胺禁食的想法，也就是认为我们今天社会中多巴胺摄入过多的想法，

12:45 这是那种我认为科学基础不够扎实的事情之一。这并不意味着我认为尝试这个建议不好，你知道的，也许并不总是要像那只不断按按钮的老鼠一样，说：“给我更多，给我更多，给我更多。”但是多巴胺比这要难以捉摸得多。

13:05 你或者人们如何设计他们的生活，以便更有效地利用多巴胺，或者在不必做出极端疯狂的事情或对甲基苯丙胺上瘾的情况下获取更多多巴胺呢？是的，这总是一个好计划。我认为我会回到之前我做过的一个区分，那就是探索可以带你了解世界，而探索能让你感觉良好。我想说的是：

13:36 多巴胺部分，就像我们谈论多巴胺时用的是一种简写，意思是让我们去做那些能带给我们快感和良好感觉的事情。而这通常是由多巴胺来调节的。我认为值得深思熟虑的是，这种良好的感觉是否也意味着教会我认识世界或认识自己，带我走进某个值得一去的地方？还是说这只是空洞的热量？这相当于只是撕开糖包直接倒入喉咙吗？

14:08 或者我正在吃一个苹果，它给我提供了一些不错的糖分，但它也给我带来了一堆其他有用的东西。所以我明白很容易批评抖音之类的平台，说我们只是在浪费生命……或者说甚至是科技本身，对吗？在过去的20年里，我们可以说，哦，现代科技正在腐蚀我们的大脑。我不认为这是真的或公平的，但我认为……

14:32 有时候我坐着滚动浏览互联网的时候，我真的只是像实验鼠一样坐在那里，不断按按钮，寻求新的惊喜。寻求有趣的东西。寻求令人愤慨的东西。当我这样做的时候，我正在激活我的探索机制。我正在激活我的多巴胺机制。

14:50 但我通常不是这样的，我不会半途而废，我会想，哇，我比六小时前坐在椅子上的自己更好人了。所以还有其他探索方式，比如读书，或者上网，有意识地寻找一些东西，让你觉得，我要学到一些东西。我会收听克里斯的节目，听听他和那个不错的亚历克斯先生的精彩对话。或者，你知道的，我在开玩笑，但是

15:17 并不是我们不想获得那些满足感。只是如果这些满足感还能引导我们走上值得的道路那就更好了。人们会不会对多巴胺上瘾？你见过这种情况吗？你知道，有一本很有趣的书，由安娜·伦贝克所著，叫《多巴胺之国》，里面深入探讨了多巴胺的成瘾元素。还有，我，呃，

15:41 当我想到从书中记得的例子时，会觉得有点尴尬。有很多例子是讲那些沉迷于自慰的人。我只是记得当时想，哇，这是一条艰难的道路。我的意思是，过一段时间后，那会有多不舒服呢？所以是的，我认为这是可能的。而且我认为阿纳伦基至少提出了一个很有说服力的观点，认为这确实是对多巴胺上瘾的案例。我认为上瘾是……

16:06 这是一个很有分量的词，有时候让人觉得，看，我是个跑步者，对吧？所以有很多讨论是关于跑步是否上瘾的。人们会不会对跑步上瘾？那些每天早上必须起床去跑步的人，他们是成瘾于内啡肽、内源性大麻素还是别的什么吗？就像，如果他们不去跑步，他们会感觉更糟吗？是的，他们不去跑步就会感觉更糟。

16:28 嗯，从某些神经化学的角度来说，你可以说他们对此上瘾。当你和心理学家谈论成瘾的定义时，还有其他标准，比如，它是否干扰了他们的生活？比如，他们是否忽视了家庭？有没有孩子在家说，我希望我能吃早餐，但是妈妈必须去跑三小时的步。

16:47 如果真是这样，那么这是一种产生负面影响的成瘾。这正是我们通常所说的成瘾，不仅仅是我们每天都喜欢做的事情。就像，我对吃早餐上瘾。就像，我需要吃早餐，但这并不是我生活中的问题。至于多巴胺，就像，是的，有些人显然一天要手淫九次。我在一本书中读到这个，这大概不太好。我想我们大多数人更多的时候，可能就会陷入这样的循环和周期中，我们

17:14 你知道，我当然知道这种感觉，哦，那一个小时去哪儿了？我就坐在这儿刷社交媒体，但我没有，你知道的，我有事情需要去做，而且那不是最佳的。但我不会说我对此上瘾什么的。那只是时间利用得不好。多巴胺和我们对时间流逝的感知之间是否存在某种联系？

17:34 这很有趣。我想我实际上并不知道，那个，呃，我得承认那并不是我最擅长的。我的意思是，时间的流逝是一个非常有趣的话题，就像，

17:45 努力。我知道，比如你跑得越猛，时间似乎过得越慢，他们对此做过仔细的研究。我想多巴胺可能在其中起作用，但我觉得可能还有其他神经递质，还有仅仅是心理上的感知。不过，当你坐在互联网前时，确实会有时间扭曲的感觉，突然你会想，怎么回事？这是怎么发生的？好吧。跟我谈谈不确定性吧。不确定性扮演了什么角色？

18:11 我认为如果我们试图定义探索，有几个要素。我认为首当其冲的是你选择做的事情的结果必须是未知的。也许你也可以说需要挣扎和其他一些元素，但不确定性确实是我们讨论的核心，不知道会发生什么。这不仅仅是，

18:39 我应该下50-50的注还是30-70的注？就像，我甚至不知道赔率是多少。我不知道如果我朝这个方向走会发生什么。但我唯一能知道的方法就是走我不知通向何方的右边那条路。你可以用多种不同的方式来论证，包括用神经科学来论证，我们天生就

19:06 追求不确定性，喜欢不确定性。有数据集显示人们如何从外卖公司Deliveroo订购食物。哈佛科学家分析了160万份订单，以了解我们是如何决定我们想要的东西的。其中一个发现是，

19:27 在其他条件相同的情况下，如果评分相同，如果价格相同，我们往往对我们了解较少的事物有偏见，不仅是因为如果我之前从未尝试过，我就想尝试一下。而且，我们看两家餐厅，它们是一样的。一家有100条评价，另一家有10条评价，即使这两家都是四星级酒店。这就好像我会选择那个只被评了10次的餐厅，因为我对其了解更少。所以

19:53 不确定性对我们有一种内在的吸引力。关键点是，并不是说我们喜欢不知道事情。而是我们喜欢知道事情。

20:01 因为被不确定性吸引，它引导我们找到了解世界的最佳方式。因为如果你坚持已知的东西，你就不会学到任何新东西。当然，必须有一个最佳点。太多的不确定性就会感觉像是混乱。绝对如此。所以在一些论文中，他们称之为……我甚至不确定怎么发音。我会选择用“Wundt曲线”。尽管我认为在维也纳，他们可能会说“Wundt曲线”。

20:27 有一位著名的德国心理学家，19世纪德国心理学的先驱，名叫威廉·冯特。他提出了这个想法，这种刺激反应曲线是一种非常普遍的现象。对于任何给定的刺激，如果它很弱，我们并不觉得特别有趣。随着它变得更强，我们觉得越来越吸引人。但如果它变得太强……

20:49 可以理解，我们会说，是的，我们不再喜欢那样了。所以对于不确定性，有很多证据表明确实如此，甚至你可以拿八个月大的婴儿来做实验，给他们看玩具从盒子里出来的模式等等。如果非常可预测，总是同一个玩具。他们会觉得，哦，无聊。你可以追踪他们的视线，看他们是否感兴趣。如果超级不可预测，总是不同的东西。他们觉得那很无聊。但如果有一定的规律性，虽然不可预测，但并不疯狂。你感觉好像可以找出这个模式。

21:18 这就是我们通常觉得有趣的地方。这就是前卫艺术所追求的。就像是一个颠倒的你。你想处在那个最佳点，就是“我不知道接下来会发生什么。”但这不仅仅是胡言乱语。例如，这也适用于音乐。他们做过分析。如果音乐超级可预测，这就是为什么我们在10岁之后不再觉得《玛丽有只小羊羔》那么有趣。如果超级可预测，我们不会觉得那么有吸引力。但如果是随机的音符，

21:43 我们也不会觉得那么有吸引力。有一个最佳点，但这个最佳点也取决于我们的经验。所以，如果你花很多时间听音乐、演奏音乐或学习音乐，你会开始越来越偏爱复杂且不那么可预测的音乐，因为你越来越擅长预测接下来会发生什么。

21:57 本期节目由Whoop赞助。我已经佩戴Whoop超过五年了，那时他们还是节目上的合作伙伴，这是我坚持使用的唯一一款可穿戴设备，因为它是最好的。根据应用程序的记录，我实际上已经用它追踪了超过1600天的生活，这相当疯狂。Whoop超级无害。你甚至不记得自己戴上了它，但它却追踪着一切。

22:18 通过手腕上的一个小设备全天候追踪一切。它能追踪你的心率、睡眠、恢复情况、所有锻炼、静息心率、心率变异性、你整夜呼吸的次数，现在甚至可以追踪你的步数。将所有这些数据输入一个应用程序，并输出非常简单易理解且极具可用性的数据。

22:35 太棒了。我是他们的超级粉丝。最重要的是，你可以免费加入，新推出的Whoop 4.0表带完全免费，你还能获得第一个月的免费试用，并有30天的退款保证。所以你完全可以免费购买并试用。如果在29天后你不喜欢它，我会直接退还你的钱。你可以通过点击下面的描述中的链接或访问join.whoop.com/modernwisdom来获取全新的Whoop 4.0和30天的免费试用。就是join.whoop.com。

23:04 /modernwisdom。我记得我了解到过一个研究，该研究展示了新生儿的脸和不同羊的脸。你见过这个研究吗？没有，我就想，这是要往哪儿发展啊？是的，是的，是的。所以如果你要给我看，是10只、15只羊吗？除非它们非常明显地不同，否则我们可能会说，是的，那可能就是同一只羊一遍又一遍地出现。看起来婴儿似乎有能力辨别不同的动物，这是一种认知过程，就像我们移动耳朵的能力一样，我认为所有人类都有能力稍微动一动耳朵，但是肌肉可能会有点萎缩了。是的，不，不是用手指你可以自己手动去动它。我现在就试着做一下，只是觉得，我感觉我看起来很傻，是的，不起作用。嗯。

在你达到某个年龄之后，我不知道这个阈值是多少。可能是大约八个月，或者是一年半，大概是这样。这种能够辨别不同羊或者不同牛的能力似乎会逐渐消失。这也让我想到了这一点，那就是你拥有……

如果我们无法区分不同的羊，即使它们是不同的，不确定性的水平也不会超过一个阈值。尽管存在不确定性，但我们无法检测到它，并且它必须超过一个特定的阈值，我们才能说，嗯，是的，那是不同的羊。那会很有趣。这真的很有趣，因为这是孩子们能够感知到的东西。我认为在我研究的内容中有一个主题就是，孩子们是非常好的探索者。他们能够凭借自己的直觉行事。我的意思是，他们没有其他的指导，他们不知道自己应该对什么感兴趣。所以他们会看什么吸引了他们。而且，他们对这种中等程度的不确定性非常敏感。就像我说的，你知道的，八个月大或者别的什么年龄，他们能够感知到在某种模式的可预测性中的相当微妙的差异。而随着我们年龄的增长，很多事情都会发生。所以我不知道是我们失去了这种能力，还是我们只是被教导说，不，这就是你在周二10点到12点之间需要做的事情，诸如此类。所以我们追随的理由有时候是好的。我们追随的是社会为我们设定的模式，我们可能在理解对我们来说什么是内在有趣的事物上变得不那么擅长。问题在于，对我们来说什么是内在有趣的，这是我们获得关于那个中等程度的不确定性的最佳信号，这是我们能够了解世界的地方。但是，你知道，当我……

我有一种普遍的感觉，我们应该，引述一下，尝试像孩子那样更多地去探索。很难说清楚这是什么意思，但我觉得其中一部分是试图重新获得那种天生的感觉，即理解你觉得有趣、好奇或难以解释的事物，就像

26:12 嗯。为什么会这样呢？我想知道。我想跟进这件事，而不是简单地跟随别人的课程或遵循算法建议你可能觉得有趣的东西。好的，降低可预测性会有所帮助，但是……

26:27 很多人陷入他们的日常习惯。我经常思考这种享受意外发现和不确定性与当事物新颖且激烈时时间流逝速度减慢之间的紧张关系。然后另一方面，每个人都在努力做到的事情就是做到最优。所谓的最优，你的意思是把所有自由度精简到你可以通过有规律的——

26:54 穿越地形。就像这种情况是我通常遇到的。现在是早上。要去上班。去上班的最佳路线是什么？实际上我不想经过那组红绿灯，因为如果我走错路，尝试向右转，会花很长时间。谷歌地图甚至没有考虑这一点。所以我会选择这条路线，绕过它。结果你就有所有的自由度，就像收缩到非常少的一些非常有效率、高效，但大体上缺乏新意、刺激、不确定或非常确定的交通

27:23 人生道路。是的，我想这就是优化器那种永恒的诅咒，最终只能过上一种虽然乏味但相当高效的生活。我认为这是现代生活的一大紧张，我们……我的意思是，成年和变老的过程之一就是我们会变得越来越高效。我们知道自己喜欢什么，不喜欢什么，知道什么有效，什么无效。

27:52 所以我们会收敛到这个越来越狭窄、越来越窄的选项集合中。你知道，现在有很多关于习惯以及如何形成更好习惯的大型运动或文献。这有很多充分的理由。我自己就是一个习惯养成者，但事实上，习惯是与探索相对立的。你知道，你提到了通勤，这是一个很好的例子。有一次伦敦地铁进行了为期两天的罢工，

28:20 我想是2014年的事，是一次可选的罢工。所以工人们可以选择出勤或不出勤，这意味着一些车站开放，另一些则关闭，这取决于在某个车站有多少人出现。所以两天里，人们不得不适应这种情况，他们仍然可以乘坐地铁，但必须调整自己说：“哦，我的车站没开”或者“我的目的地站没开。我得找条不同的路线或在不同的地方下车。”

28:43 正如你所说，这是优化习惯的典型例子。你每天的工作日都重复两次这种通勤模式。你知道怎么上班。但是他们在一项大型分析中发现，他们分析了牡蛎卡数据，发现在最规律地通勤的人群中，那些每个工作日都走相同路线的人，

两天罢工后，大约5%的人采用了完全不同的通勤模式。基本上他们意识到，哦，如果我早点下车，我就能做到。这样只需要走五分钟的路，而不是十分钟的公交车程。有一家我喜欢咖啡店。是的，或者我可以乘船沿着运河走，风景优美。所以，即使重复，重复也不能保证你找到

最好的、最优化的解决方案。这还没有考虑到，嘿，有时候改变一下日常习惯也许不错。但就像，即使你是个优化者，即使你总是想要最好的，习惯并不总是能带你达到目标。有时候你不想每天早上都去探索。你不想早上醒来上班时说，好吧，我要发明一种新的系鞋带方法。然后我会决定用哪部分身体来遮盖衣物。然后我会尝试想出一种完全不同的上班方式，因为你每天早上都会迟到。

但是，拥有一些探索，不完全固守于你的日常习惯，我认为，再次回到这个主题，这既有趣也能带来更好的结果。那么努力呢？跟我谈谈努力悖论吧。是的，这就是探索的负面影响。这看起来像是探索的缺点，因为它很难。假设你决定要寻找一种新的工作方式。

30:30 最可能的情况是你可能会迷路，或者你会花费更长的时间。那会很糟糕。我的意思是，选择走你已经走过的路线是有原因的。所以，总的来说，我认为这一点是正确的。

30:41 任何探索性的选择，回到我们之前说的，按定义来说，结果是不确定的。而且在大多数情况下，平均而言，实际上会比你已经知道的更糟。就像在餐厅点餐，如果你知道你喜欢某家餐厅的某道菜，然后你决定尝试肉饼或别的什么，很可能味道会比你知道你喜欢的要差。

31:04 所以探索似乎很糟糕。它只会带来负面的结果。然而，从长远来看，通过探索，你可以发现一些最终会变得更好的事物。但是还有另一个角度，那就是实际做一些有挑战性的事情，涉及一些挣扎，偶尔迷路，实际上可能会非常令人满意。所以……

31:25 心理学中有种叫做努力悖论的概念，即有时候我们不得不付出越多的努力去做某事，我们就越喜欢它。无论是跑马拉松还是别的什么，人们不是因为马拉松容易才去跑。他们之所以跑马拉松，是因为它很难。有时候你可能会开始，我想要变得健康，所以我打算开始跑步。但是跑过不止一次马拉松的人，实际上是被它的难度所吸引。你可以把这个道理延伸到在宜家买家具上。

31:53 你可能可以买到预先组装好的类似家具。但人们做过研究，这就是所谓的宜家效应，也就是说，如果你不得不与那些图解说明搏斗一番，弄清楚那个艾伦内六角扳手怎么使用等等，然后你组装好了咖啡桌，你会比直接收到一张完全相同的预先组装好的咖啡桌更珍视它。所以在我们内心有某种东西是看重努力的。那是什么……

32:21 很难说清楚，但是在过去几年中有一些研究表明，付出努力是一种意义的来源。人们无法定义生活的意义，但他们能告诉你什么时候某件事感觉有意义。做困难的事情往往感觉有意义。我在想这是否有时会影响到恋爱关系，那种典型的，我只在他们不想要我时才想要的动态。是的。

32:43 哦，伙计，这是一个有趣的提议，或者是那些充满风暴的关系，看起来你似乎要一直为之努力。我的意思是，我认为可能有一点点这样的关系，太容易得到的关系往往会

32:56 你知道，我不想诋毁别人的感情，或者对感情持消极态度，但如果它完全没有冲突，没有任何紧张感，那么它可能感觉有些乏味。而且你觉得它永远都不需要——嗯，它甚至不需要紧张或冲突，对吧？努力。你知道的，如果它总是存在的话。我的意思是，看，和平是我生命中最重要的事情。所以对我来说，越和平越好。但即便如此，你也不希望某件事再次变得如此可预测，没有不确定性，没有阴谋诡计。

33:26 那么，在这种不确定性和努力之下，这种动态正在发生，你如何建议人们更好地拥抱挑战呢？是的。我的意思是，我认为首先要认识到的是，仅仅因为某件事很难，并不意味着应该回避它。实际上，有些时候，你知道的，就像这样，

33:52 向迈克尔·艾斯特致敬，他的邮件列表叫做2%，因为这是选择走楼梯而不是自动扶梯的人所占的百分比。就像你看向楼梯和自动扶梯，似乎很明显走自动扶梯会是一个更愉快、更好的体验。但当你选择走楼梯时，我……

34:18 我不认为只有我一个人这样想。就像，这，这，这，付出一点努力并得到满足感，认识到付出努力会让你感觉良好，嗯，你知道的，这并不会让努力消失，但它帮助你将其重新定义为积极的事情，而不是消极的。对我来说，这是一个付出努力的机会，这将让我感觉良好，而不是我被迫去做困难的事情。这能联系到你第一本书的内容吗，嗯， 34:48 这能帮助我们提高适应力、耐力、承受痛苦和艰难时期的能力吗？我的意思是，我认为如果你试图挑战自己，如果你试图应对困难时期，如果你把每一种负面情绪都看作一种灾难或者一种消极的东西，那么你就处于

35:11 那将是一种痛苦的经历，你可能会更早地想要放弃。但如果你能改变这种看法，就像我在《坚持》一书中谈到的那样，关注你内心独白的力量，对吧？就像你在跑马拉松时告诉自己，这太艰难了，我不可能完成。我最好退出。

35:31 变成一种自我实现的预言，因为你能坚持的能力部分取决于你的大脑对你能否继续的信念。如果你能转变这种看法，我能做到，我为这个训练过，我知道这很艰难，它应该是艰难的，我周围的每个人也有同样的感受，这是经历的一部分，那么这就变成了一种提升表现的思维方式。所以我认为

35:59 认识到努力并不意味着它会变得容易。它并没有改变事情的难度，但认识到它不是一个象征，一个你做得不对的信号，实际上它可以是一件好事。我认为这有助于你更长时间地坚持。你不太可能放弃事情。你有没有想过人们如何避免把生活看作是工具性的？如果一切都是

36:25 为了将来从中获得的东西，你实际上会花费所有的时间，极端的延迟满足最终导致没有满足感。这就像每天一遍又一遍地赢得棉花糖测试，但从未兑现。是的。你已经触及了一个重大的困境，这也是我在写这本书时真正挣扎和思考的事情。

当我开始考虑探索时，我以为我会写一本书，副标题大概会是关于我们为什么应该更多地探索或者更多探索的理由之类的内容。但当我深入其中时，我开始有了你刚才表达的想法，比如，哦等等，这就像，想想听音乐的例子。比如说，大多数人倾向于，嗯，

你在年轻时找到你喜欢的音乐，在你十几岁和二十几岁的时候。然后随着时间的推移，大多数人倾向于听的新音乐越来越少。这并不完全不合理，因为你已经花了一些时间去探索，你知道自己喜欢什么。但你可能会说，这太遗憾了。我们应该更多地探索。我不会陷入这种口味变窄的陷阱。我会继续探索新音乐。我认为这很棒。但如果你要将其推向极端，说，

事实上，我永远不会重复听同一首歌，因为探索才是关键。那么这就显得荒谬了。对吧。但是，这总是保持探索的视角，总是寻找未来，永不停歇。我真的很喜欢这首歌。我要连续播放17遍。即使我妻子杀了我。所以你必须停下来享受它。我认为这真的是一种，从某种意义上说，

在决策科学中有一个叫做探索-利用困境的想法。这确实是个难题。并不是说总是应该探索。每当你走到一个岔路口时，选择那条少有人走的路。你必须考虑

也许现在是利用的时候了，把我刚刚发现的音乐坐下来听，或者弄清楚我，你知道的，或者也许现在不是。也许现在是探索的好时机，但事实并非如此。正如你所说，原因恰恰相反，如果你从不停止享受你所拥有的……

那么我不确定探索是否真的令人满意。这一集由Eight Sleep赞助。睡眠不仅仅是关于你休息多久，而是你的身体在整个夜晚保持在最佳温度范围内的能力。这就是Eight Sleep发挥作用的地方。只需像床单一样把他们的新款Pod 4 Ultra加到床垫上，它就会自动调节床的每一侧温度，最高可达20度。

另外，它还有内置传感器，可以跟踪你的睡眠时间、睡眠阶段、心率变异性、打鼾、心率，准确度达到99%。它甚至在你上床前一个小时就开始冷却或加热你的床铺，这就是为什么8睡眠被临床证明每晚可以增加长达一小时的睡眠时间。最好的是，他们有30晚的睡眠试用，所以你购买后可以睡29晚。如果你不喜欢，他们会退款。另外，

他们提供国际运输。现在，你可以通过点击下面的描述链接或访问8sleep.com/modernwisdom并使用代码modernwisdom在结账时购买Pod 4 Ultra，享受350美元的优惠。就是E-I-G-H-T sleep.com/modernwisdom并在结账时使用modernwisdom。人们如何更好地掌握探索-利用权衡呢？

是的。所以我一头扎进了这个大坑。我来自物理背景。我是个定量的人。我想要一个公式来告诉我何时探索或利用。我想为我的书中的第五章道歉，它有点试图跟随那个大坑，因为有很多尝试去探索。

得出一个公式。但事实证明，在任何现实世界的背景下，数学都是荒谬的，变得非常难以理解。但有一些我认为从数学中得出的重要原则，在日常生活中也是实用的。所以

一个概念是不确定性奖励的想法。我们有点凭直觉这么做，但我认为有意识地去考虑它会有帮助。当你考虑一个决定时，你不会自动选择你了解较少或未探索的道路，但是对一个选项了解得越少……

40:58 你给出的奖励与你对其了解的程度成正比。所以你说，在其他条件相同的情况下，我会选择我了解较少的那个选项。这有助于确保你不会过于僵化地陷入你所谈论的那套习惯中。这不是你考虑的唯一因素，但就像是在说，如果它能教我新东西或带我走上一条新路，我会增加一个奖励。然后还有另一个

41:28 我认为有用的启发式方法。这是一种解决探索-利用困境的近似方法。这叫做置信上界算法，这是数学版本。他们将其转化为日常用语的方式是在面对不确定性时要乐观，你应该对你所做的选择持乐观态度。这在实践中的意义是，如果你在选项之间做选择，你应该选择

41:58 具有最佳情况或最佳实际收益或最佳现实、最佳情况前景的方案。之所以要现实，是因为这就像我并不是说去买一张彩票，因为它的最佳情况是你成为百万富翁，这不太可能发生。但对于现实的情景来说，乐观是有回报的。所以举个例子，我想说的是

42:25 你正在考虑不同的工作可能性。一个人起薪更高且稳定，这确实是个好消息。另一个人可能收入少一些，稳定性稍差，但他有通向理想工作的途径。他有实现你长期真正想要从事的工作的途径。在其他条件相同的情况下，这值得一试，因为这就是在不确定面前保持乐观的态度，我不知道事情会发展成什么样，

42:52 但这就是乐观。如果事情真的发展顺利，那就是让我最开心的事情。数学显示的是，如果你根据自己的决定，所有的赌注都下注了。可能会发展得很好，也可能会发展得很糟糕。但从长远来看，如果你在不确定面前保持乐观，这将减少你的遗憾。这将减少你回顾过去时说，

43:12 我希望我做了那件事。我认为这不仅符合直觉，也有数学道理。你更有可能回顾过去说，“我希望我邀请那个人跳舞”，而不是，“我真的后悔邀请那个人跳舞，他们拒绝了。”是的，再为我深入探讨一下遗憾最小化的问题。是的，我不知道如何用数学来表达。数学意义上的遗憾是实际结果与你如果做出所有正确选择所能得到的最好结果之间的差异。没有人有水晶球，所以没有人能够总是做出所有正确的选择。但是，遗憾就像常常一样，你知道，你可以将这些决策树视为现实中的赌博游戏。你知道，我们可能在谈论职业或约会决定，但就像，我在这上面押5美元。我在那上面押10美元，你知道，我应该押哪台机器？

44:05 或许你在10次投注中能做的最好的事情就是赢得100美元。如果你进行了一系列的投注，最后只剩下70美元，那么你的遗憾就是30美元。这就是数学上的思考方式。因为没有人是完美的，没有人有预知能力，遗憾总是会增加，这说起来有点令人沮丧，但是……

44:27 没有办法在生活中不积累一些遗憾，比如我想我应该邀请她跳舞，而不是另一个女孩。我们会积累遗憾。所以目标不是消除遗憾，因为那是不可能的，而是尽量减少遗憾。数学显示，在不确定面前保持这种乐观的态度是

44:47 是保证长期来看，除非你找到那个有三个愿望的神奇精灵，否则你的遗憾会以尽可能慢的速度增加。是的。是的，非常。我在寻找。是的，你知道，就像。那会很不错。所以，你知道，这算是，我想，谈到了

45:08 环境、生活方式，就是外部探索，关于认知探索、思维模式、我们寻求新行为、我们寻求新信息、算法、现代世界，诸如此类的东西，你都学到了什么？是的。所以当我最初开始关注这个主题时，我是说，我对探索一个

45:31 我认为这不仅仅是关于我度假的方式之类的事情。我认为这也与想法有关，但这是个类比。这是个隐喻。而我真正惊讶地发现是……实际上，不是这样的。在你的大脑中，这就像是一回事。当你漫步在一个你从未去过的城镇时，你正在用你的海马体绘制地图。所以你正在形成认知地图。字面上，有……

个体神经元在你走到地图上的特定点时会亮起。还有其他神经元会记录你面对的方向以及你离城镇边界的距离。你正在你的大脑中构建地图。有一个关于伦敦出租车司机的著名研究，他们的海马体被扩大了。这是因为他们在绘制一个非常复杂的城市。所以他们的海马体实际上必须变得更大。所以事实证明，海马体不仅仅是一个用于绘制

景观的地方，它也是一个用于绘制想法的地方。我们记录想法。所以彼此接近的想法或者相距遥远的想法，这在物理上在大脑中体现出来。所以一个例子是我们在海马体中记录我们的社交网络。所以你可以想象一下

我们知道人们。我们对他们的层级有一定的感觉。他们比我们更有权力还是比我们更没有权力？我们有多了解他们？他们与我们亲近吗？所以这是一个二维地图。人们实际上以这种二维方式在他们的大脑中绘制他们的社交网络。所以所有这些都是在说，当我们谈论探索和利用的不同方式时，

47:09 所以这些真的，这与创造力密切相关，并且想出新的想法，扩展我们对想法的认知地图。因此，有很多有趣的发现，关于我们应该如何结合探索和利用来产生更好的想法。是的。

47:31 在这个背景下，探索和好奇心是同一件事、类似的事、有关联吗？我认为它们非常密切相关。好奇心是一种驱动力，促使我们去探索，我会这么说。我不是个词典专家，但这就是我如何对它们进行分类的。我认为好奇心，是的，很多都是相同的

47:53 讨论适用，而探索实际上是因为好奇心最终会去做的。我看到你谈论人类变得更聪明但创造力减少？

48:04 是的，所以有一个著名的效应叫做弗林效应，已经持续了一个世纪。智商分数持续逐渐上升，所以他们必须每隔几年重新平衡分数。关于为什么会这样有很多争论。可能是因为现代社会需要比很久以前的狩猎采集者，甚至是农民和采集者，更多的抽象思维。

48：33 那是一个效应。不太为人所知的是，有类似的测试来评估创造力。有一组叫做托兰斯创造性思维测试的测试。他们也需要定期重新标准化分数。但这是因为分数持续下降。孩子们越来越缺乏创造力。因此，在大约1990年到2008年间，创造力出现了显著下降。

48:55 而在2008年到2017年这一轮重新正常化之后，下降幅度更为陡峭。你知道的，很容易让人想说，哦，就像2008年到2017年之间发生了什么？让我想想，我是什么时候拿到我的第一部智能手机的？社交媒体，你知道的，所有这些都只是猜测，但事实上有证据表明创造性思维正在

49:24 而能够提出全新想法的能力可能正在下降。我应该说，这不仅仅是针对孩子们的这些测试。对专利和科学论文进行了大量分析，发现真正能引领一个领域朝不同方向发展的突破性或颠覆性论文数量似乎正在减少。

49:49 我需要暂时深入了解你的一些其他内容。关于认知的事情让我有所思考。跟我谈谈最近的数据吧。你一定看过这方面的研究。锻炼、活动、体育活动以及心理健康。当前世界在这方面的情况如何？是的，实际上，情况是……

50:10 时机很好。我最近写过这方面的内容，因为有一项大型怀疑论研究。像我这样的人，我是健康和健身记者，所以我总是说，对心理健康最好的事情就是锻炼。它能治愈你的抑郁症。它能让你的头发重新生长。它能做所有这些伟大的事情。我尽量不夸大其词，但这很难做到。我想我是个坚信锻炼力量的人。最近有一篇重要的评论指出，等等，锻炼促进心理健康的证据到底有多好。总体结论是，锻炼相当有效，但很难分辨出具体的作用机制。例如，许多研究发现，锻炼在对抗抑郁方面，可能与认知行为疗法或抗抑郁药物一样有效。

这取决于人群的不同，但锻炼确实具有强大的效果。问题是，是因为更多的血液流向大脑，还是因为产生了更多促进神经元之间良好连接的BDNF或其他大脑化学物质？或者是因为一旦养成锻炼习惯，就会产生一种自我效能感？你会觉得，嘿，我为自己设定了这个目标，而且我正在实现它。我真的……

在为自己做好事。实际上，我每周在那里会见朋友三次，还进行一些社交互动。所以，开始锻炼伴随着很多事情。因此，并不完全清楚，这些因素中哪些是关键的，它们各自起什么作用。我认为，这是非常有力的证据，锻炼既能维持又能促进心理健康，甚至可以说治愈，引号结束，不是治愈，而是缓解心理健康问题。但我们确切地不知道原因，也不知道加入桥牌俱乐部这类活动是否能带来同样的效果。是的。其中有多少是亲社会的，让自己摆脱一天中家的结构？我认为这其中有多少，只是

52:13 直接的选择偏见，针对的是谁，是什么样的人群，是那些愿意那么做的人。正是如此。另外，你或许听说过我说过托运行李是一种心理战术，目的是让你贫穷且迟到。虽然这是事实，但事实证明，当一个品牌投入数百小时

52:29 用于设计、组织和耐用性时，突然间托运一个行李感觉就没那么像是个陷阱了。实际上它让人感觉像是一种升级，游牧者公司用他们的新方法办理登机手续的行李就是这样。从轮子开始设计，使其更轻、更强、容量更大。它采用最佳材料，360度静音滑轮，专利申请中的微型焊接技术，以及集成TSA锁。基本上，你可以打包任何东西。

52:54 对于一到两周的衣物，它有一个完整的周边扩展，以提供更多的空间，而且更轻，所以每次你背上包时不再会有恐慌发作。他们的新随身行李比其他随身行李多容纳20%，这意味着你可以装入近一周的衣物而无需托运。它们终身耐用，并提供终身保修，另外还有30天无理由退款保证，所以你可以购买新的行李，试用一个月如果你不喜欢的话，

53:18 他们会立即退还你的钱款。你将获得20%的折扣。要查看我使用并推荐的所有内容，请访问下方描述中的链接，或前往nomadic.com/modern-wisdom。就是nomadic.com/modern-wisdom。那么锻炼与大脑健康之间的联系呢？这是否也是经过重新评估的方面呢？我认为证据相当有力，表明

53:45 锻炼要么增加，要么减缓某些大脑区域大小的减小。这是我最近研究的另一个话题，你可以找到这样的研究，让我感觉非常好。就像无论年纪多大，锻炼都会让你的大脑变得超级健康。但你也能找到那些没有发现明显效果或

54:11 说，哦，它似乎能保持这个大脑区域的大小，但那个区域就不行。这样的发现总是让人有所顾虑，因为这就好像，没有理由它能选择性作用。所以，对不起，如果我要总结一下我对证据的印象，那就是锻炼对大脑有实际的正向结构效应，这将有助于防止认知能力下降，延迟或减缓，你知道的，

54:41 甚至可能预防，这取决于你能延迟多久，或至少减缓认知能力的下降。所以我认为，你知道的，当我在寒冷的冬日早晨起床时，这是对我而言最强大的动力之一。我会说，说实话，目前的证据并非无懈可击，但我发现它，

55:02 我觉得它足够令人信服，让我起床，这么说吧。如果你要选择一种特定的锻炼方式，你认为哪一种对大脑健康最有益，会是什么呢？是的，我在这里有着无可救药的偏见。比如，看，我曾经是美国《跑者世界》杂志的专栏作家，而且我从15岁起就开始跑步了。我认为是有氧运动，就是它了。尽管努力抛开我的偏见，我认为有氧运动……

55:30 可能对大脑健康有最大的益处，我们讨论的是对生理大脑健康的影响，而不一定是对心理健康方面的影响，我认为哪种更好这一点并不明确。

55:45 我当然尝试做两种运动，比如抗阻训练和有氧运动。我也喜欢玩一些需要团队合作的运动游戏，我认为这也是大脑健康的另一个方面，就像你在锻炼时是否使用了你的大脑？还有点小证据表明，

56:03 做一些协调性游戏，比如抛接、踢足球或打篮球，这对你的大脑更好，因为所有这些促进生长的事情发生时，你同时在使用你的神经元。所以

56:19 我会选择跑步，但是差距如此之小，我认为更大的因素是无论你做什么运动，只要你喜欢并且愿意去做，你都很可能获得好处。所以并不是说其他形式的运动没有好处。目前关于第二区域的情况是怎样的呢？曾经有一段时间大家都超级热衷于第二区域。那就像是学校里的新晋校花。现在进行的是最大摄氧量训练，第二区域已经不再适用了。

56:44 我想这就像在你的世界里一个卡戴珊离婚了。会有更多的潮流出现，它们会很有趣。实际上，第二区域和最大摄氧量……如果你用现代流行词汇来描述冠军耐力运动员的训练，你会说，嗯，大约80%是第二区域，20%是最大摄氧量。他们做的就是那样。我会说……就第二区域的训练来说，我认为确实……

57:14 这是一种非常有效的训练方式，既能提高运动表现，也有助于代谢健康，可能更重要的是。我对它的主要不满是，我认为有时它的处方过于具体，好像第二区域就是魔法，第二区域0.1就什么也不是，而第一区域0.9就相当于你最好别起床。实际上，就在过去一两星期，一个专家组发表了一篇新论文，

57:43 他们提出了一个观点，他们的共识是，第二区域到第三区域是一个连续的过程，所以你不需要为此感到焦虑。事实上，我上个月为《纽约时报》写过关于第二区域的文章，我不知道，也许我是想表达这样一个观点，就是，是的，它很好，但是，你不需要，你知道的，不必每两分钟就扎一次手指测试乳酸，以确保你不会不小心走出第二区域。现在我刚才在想，

58:08 我有点担心我是不是制造了一个稻草人。我在想，人们真的相信你必须这么精确吗？后来我收到一封邮件，有人对我说，感谢你写下这篇文章。今天早上我去跑步，在山路上疾跑时，

58:22 因为我想让心率保持足够高，以保持在神奇的2区。我不慎绊倒摔倒了。当我一边流血一边走回家时，我的手表一直发出哔哔声，告诉我已经超出2区了。我心想，肯定有更好的方法。然后我想，好吧，并不是这样划分的。有些人非常认真地对待这个，认为你必须精确地处在神奇的2区。我认为那是不正确的。但是，我认为这是一个很大的误解，就是它

58:48 耐力运动员一直都在努力训练。实际上，大概有80%的时间，他们以对话的速度外出，边笑边聊，也许不会像努力悖论让我们享受那样去享受，即我们正在挑战自我。我们在做一件有些困难的事情，但并没有拼命。然后20%的时间，你外出努力挑战自己，但并不是所有时候都这样。2区依然是王道。

59:15 2区，是的，但它是最大的组成部分，或者接近最大的组成部分，是交易中的最大组成部分。2区的区域。2区爆炸半径内外的区域。没错。如果你能用望远镜看到它，那就说明你做得不错。好的，很酷。回到探索的话题，看了这本书后，你对你的生活做了哪些改变吗？这个实际上是如何平衡的呢？那么有……

59:42 有一些模糊的大局观的事情，但我会给你一个具体的实际例子，那就是我尽量不在开车外出时或在散步时在手机上开启逐向导航。

59:56 有几个原因。其中一个原因是，这样会好一些，我希望在环境中更投入一些，看向窗外而不是盯着屏幕。但实际上，在书中，我采访了一些神经科学家，他们实际上对此感到担忧，他们担心就像伦敦的出租车司机因为对环境了解得太多而使得海马体变大一样，那些

01:00:22 使用所谓的刺激反应导航的人，也就是说，他们只是像这样向左转，向右转，再向左转。无论有没有GPS我们都能做到这一点。他们的海马体并没有发挥作用。他们使用的是大脑中的另一个部分，叫做CAUT8核。而且

01:00:39 这实际上表现为差异。你的海马体会变小，而你的心室核会变大。在我们的一生中，当我们是孩子时，我们都有海马体。我们不知道世界上的路怎么走，所以我们走到哪里都在进行认知地图绘制，试图弄清楚我们在哪里。随着年龄的增长，我们学会了使用这种刺激反应方法，因为它更快、更高效、更少出错。 但问题在于，随着世界变得越来越优化，我可以走进汽车，只需按下一个按钮，甚至无需知道自己的社区在哪里，那么我们就不会过多地使用海马体。这导致海马体变得较小。有研究支持这一点。这是一个逻辑链条，你知道的，还没有人证明打开GPS会让你患上痴呆症。但确实存在一个逻辑链条：

最依赖刺激反应导航的人海马体较小。海马体较小是阿尔茨海默症、创伤后应激障碍、抑郁等疾病的已知风险因素。所以我不想过分夸大这一点，但即便有保留意见，我的结论仍是：

我看着，弄清楚我要去哪里。我查看方向，试图理解我要去哪里。然后在我需要之前关掉它。所以我不用转弯指示功能，这意味着有时我会迷路。这就意味着我的孩子们会从后座上对我喋喋不休：“妈妈用路标。妈妈不会错过那个转弯的。你为什么不用路标呢？”我就会说：

孩子们，我们会比预定时间晚到90秒，冷静点。想想我的海马体，好吗？没错。难道就没有人会想到海马体吗？是的。那是一个具体的东西。你会怎么跟那些……

就像你提出的论点，但在探索新奇、不确定性前景时仍会感到一定程度的不适的人说呢？不，去你的吧，亚历克斯。我相当喜欢我的确定性。你会去哪里呢？从存在主义、哲学或咒语的角度来看，人们可以用什么来依靠，以帮助他们在新的探索世界中感到更舒适？那么，

01:02:53 如果这是在一个鸡尾酒派对上，我会说，那太好了。你没事的。就像，我不打算尝试。我不打算，你不需要，你自己做。但是，如果他们愿意接受轻微的推动，我想问他们的问题是，你在生活中做的事情有没有你不知道结果的呢？今天、这周、这个月或今年有没有做什么事情和一年前或五年前不一样？呃，它，

01:03:26 因为如果不是这样，那么当你那样想的时候，你可能会想，嗯，在我生命中有段时间，我每天都去学校或者别的什么地方，学习新东西，做一些不同的事情，学习一项技能，或者尝试一个新游戏。这实际上可能非常有意义。所以我会说，你不必去南极才能探索。但是，如果你的生活中没有一个领域，你在

01:03:56 闯入一个你不知道结果如何的领域，无论是探索新音乐，还是培养一个新的爱好，还是通过一条和平常不同的路线在你的社区里漫步。这些都是非常宽泛的规模上的步骤。你可以在这个规模上的任何地方。你的欲望曲线与别人的不同，它会随着生活的变化而变化。

01:04:22 但如果你处于需求曲线的最左侧，一切都可以预测，一切都相同，你已经将一切都优化到了完全可预测的程度，那么考虑一下偶尔享受惊喜如何？是的，在过去几个月里，我一直尝试遵循这样一个哲学：我并不总是知道什么对我最好。

通常是这样。是的。但有一种程度，你说，自我认知、自我管理、生活方式设计自恋症。这不会影响其他人。但是，你知道，就是，不，不，不，我知道什么最好。我知道我想从“花孩子”那里点些什么。我不想尝试那个新东西。我知道周二下午三点到“金色健身房”的最佳路线。而且，是的，我……

作为一个喜欢控制的人，一个喜欢减少不确定性的人，我想我可能有很多这样的人。我喜欢冒险。我内心充满了好奇心。但我也喜欢控制。我不喜欢感觉事情失控。我喜欢秩序。我喜欢结构。我喜欢有规律。这两件事，你知道，它们之间的紧张感存在。是的。

是的，确实存在阴阳两极。就像你一样，我实际上会把自己描述为一个休闲优化者。就像，不，说真的，我知道我们应该怎样放洗碗机。就像，如果你把那个盘子放在那里，那么我们就不会在上面得到那么多水。而且会有这样的感觉，我已经考虑过了，我已经推演过了。我已经做了实验。所以不要以这种其他方式来装洗碗机。还有，是的。

01:06:08 优化过程中有些乐趣，但这与我想同时去冒险的愿望相冲突。所以我会从度假的角度来考虑这件事。我和我妻子，或者我的家人和我，我们会去进行一些有趣的徒步旅行。我也会去划独木舟。目标就是走出去，去冒险。然而……

01:06:30 本能地想上网搜索一下，看看有没有其他人做过这个旅行的博客。我们会找到所有即将看到的景点的照片。我们会确切知道会发生什么。我们会知道是否需要带冰爪。我们会知道需要带这个还是那个，我们会做好充分的准备。然后你开始旅行，发现一切正如我所预料的那样。所以等等，我为什么会来到这里？如果我都已经做了那么多研究的话。所以这些冲动总是处于冲突之中，而且，我想，将来也会一直如此，但是，

01:06:58 有时候你只需要推一把。去年夏天有趣的是，我的家人去比利牛斯山徒步旅行，我和妻子在出发前都非常忙。到了那里后，我们惊讶地发现，

01:07:14 天哪，我们实际上没有对这个徒步路线进行像往常那样的详尽研究。这太棒了。所以我们每天就决定，好吧，让我们弄清楚接下来会发生什么，因为我们不知道。我们没有研究它。然后这是我想牢记的一课，那就是，是的，控制和优化固然好，但有时候只是喜欢……

01:07:36 鬼知道呢！看看会发生什么。女士们、先生们，亚历克斯·哈钦森。亚历克斯，伙计，你太棒了。不管怎样，在节目上已经七年半了。是的，我的意思是……

01:07:49 你写的东西，你为《跑步者之墙》写些什么？我现在在外刊工作。所以我每周为《户外》杂志写一篇关于健身、耐力方面新研究的文章。是的，每个人都需要在推特上关注你，关注Sweat Science。如果你喜欢基于证据的锻炼方面的内容，你太棒了。还有新书，为什么人们要去买它呢？

01:08:09 嗯，他们应该探索探索这个主题。我希望它能，你知道的，没有神奇的公式，但我希望它会鼓励人们在生活中找到惊喜的空间。太棒了。亚历克斯，我很感激你。非常感谢，克里斯。

01:08:25 我经常被问到书籍推荐的问题。人们想要开始阅读小说、非虚构类作品或真实生活故事。这就是为什么我列出了我读过的100本最有趣、最有影响力的书籍。这些是我找到的最能改变人生的读物。还有描述我为什么喜欢它们以及购买链接。而且完全免费。你现在就可以通过访问chriswillx.com/books来获取。就是chriswillx.com/books。

Edit:2025.05.06

亚历克斯·哈钦森是一位科学记者、前物理学家和作家。为什么人类天生具有探索的欲望？我们天生对未知事物感兴趣，但好奇心有时会让我们偏离方向。那么，如何设计一种生活，引导探索和多巴胺走向正确的方向，又不至于走得太远？期待了解人类为何被探索所吸引，以及探索背后的神经科学对我们产生了什么影响，多巴胺背后的真相以及如何设计生活以最大化多巴胺，不确定性如何影响我们的探索驱动力，好奇心和探索是否相同，玩耍的重要性，以及与普通人相比，精英运动员在心理能力方面的差异，以及更多……

Edit:2025.05.06

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